I'm at an early stage of throwing together a cold water bait and have a couple of questions for the experts
Firstly, what protein% do you aim for with an easily digestible bait. So far the bulk of the protein will be from brocacel and supergold 60, and possibly some spirulina but I'm unsure on levels with this.
I also think I'm going to need an extra binder/hardener and am looking at blood plasma, egg albumen or a mix of both, which of these is the better binder, and would have the least impact on digestibility
The bulk of the mix is mostly carb, with liquids that have active yeast/bacteria cultures, but I'm also looking to add alpha amylase
What sort of dosage is used with this and what is the storage life of it.
As I say, I'm at an early stage and am just getting a rough idea on quantities of certain ingredients to keep things cost efficient
Thanks in advance
Firstly, what protein% do you aim for with an easily digestible bait. So far the bulk of the protein will be from brocacel and supergold 60, and possibly some spirulina but I'm unsure on levels with this.
I also think I'm going to need an extra binder/hardener and am looking at blood plasma, egg albumen or a mix of both, which of these is the better binder, and would have the least impact on digestibility
The bulk of the mix is mostly carb, with liquids that have active yeast/bacteria cultures, but I'm also looking to add alpha amylase
What sort of dosage is used with this and what is the storage life of it.
As I say, I'm at an early stage and am just getting a rough idea on quantities of certain ingredients to keep things cost efficient
Thanks in advance
In reply to Post #1
Depending on the source and AA profile 35-45% protein level. I would be more worried about the lipids if you want a 'winter's bait. Personally I use the same bait all year
Depending on the source and AA profile 35-45% protein level. I would be more worried about the lipids if you want a 'winter's bait. Personally I use the same bait all year
In reply to Post #1
Just a couple of points:
1) Spirulina-keep the level low. I've mucked about A LOT with this over the last three years at all sorts of levels from a teaspoon to 10% of the mix. My conclusion is that it's better on paper than in practice. 10g is probably the best, on my view.
2) Amylase. Really useful. Alcotec Alpha Amylase. Very powerful, big temperature and pH spectrum. 0.5g per kilo is all you need.
Just a couple of points:
1) Spirulina-keep the level low. I've mucked about A LOT with this over the last three years at all sorts of levels from a teaspoon to 10% of the mix. My conclusion is that it's better on paper than in practice. 10g is probably the best, on my view.
2) Amylase. Really useful. Alcotec Alpha Amylase. Very powerful, big temperature and pH spectrum. 0.5g per kilo is all you need.
In reply to Post #3
My conclusion is that it's better on paper than in practice.
Same here, 10%
My conclusion is that it's better on paper than in practice.
Same here, 10%
In reply to Post #1
For a feed bait in the depths of winter I'd shoot for under 30% total protein (including liquids, eggs etc) and you could very successfully go lower than that if you got creative. If we want to get technical this amount would vary depending upon where the protein came from and what state it was in (think predigested, free aminos etc).
You want the carp to keep eating plenty through the winter, this won't happen as much if protein is too high.
Carbohydrate is easier for them to digest.
Lipids should be low, as previously mentioned.
A little toasted sesame is all I'd add in the way of lipids in winter, and I wouldn't even do that on all mixes.
For a feed bait in the depths of winter I'd shoot for under 30% total protein (including liquids, eggs etc) and you could very successfully go lower than that if you got creative. If we want to get technical this amount would vary depending upon where the protein came from and what state it was in (think predigested, free aminos etc).
You want the carp to keep eating plenty through the winter, this won't happen as much if protein is too high.
Carbohydrate is easier for them to digest.
Lipids should be low, as previously mentioned.
A little toasted sesame is all I'd add in the way of lipids in winter, and I wouldn't even do that on all mixes.
Thanks guys, the dry mix is looking around 25-30% protein and sub 15% lipids, possibly sub 10%
Interesting notes on spirulina, I was going to start at around 3% with it, on paper it looks a great protein source for winter. I've never gone in depth with flaa, but using the three main sources i have id hope to be fairly well balanced. I'll also have 10% soya for binding and moisture retention.
Re plasma/albumin, is there much difference between them in regards to the finished structure? I think I'll need one of them to hold the bait together, but I also need the bait to be porous as I think it's going to gas up like crazy. Generally I think freezing and thawing opens up the skin a bit, but I don't think all the 'live' elements will survive freezing.
Interesting notes on spirulina, I was going to start at around 3% with it, on paper it looks a great protein source for winter. I've never gone in depth with flaa, but using the three main sources i have id hope to be fairly well balanced. I'll also have 10% soya for binding and moisture retention.
Re plasma/albumin, is there much difference between them in regards to the finished structure? I think I'll need one of them to hold the bait together, but I also need the bait to be porous as I think it's going to gas up like crazy. Generally I think freezing and thawing opens up the skin a bit, but I don't think all the 'live' elements will survive freezing.
In reply to Post #5
Don't disagree but what do you put in a bait (or leave out?) to get the protein % below 30% (other than a 50/50 mix!)?
It's quite difficult to get below 30% so genuinely interested in a good mix that is below 30% finished bait.
Don't disagree but what do you put in a bait (or leave out?) to get the protein % below 30% (other than a 50/50 mix!)?
It's quite difficult to get below 30% so genuinely interested in a good mix that is below 30% finished bait.
In reply to Post #7
Lots! Low protein bird food, wheat meal, oat meal, semo, low fat peanut meal, kelp, there's lots of ingredients that are low enough in protein to make a mix that will carry a good winter attractor package whilst being digestible.
Of course aminos will not be balanced but this doesn't bother me in the slightest when it comes to a winter bait.
Totally respect your views on this though Peter
Lots! Low protein bird food, wheat meal, oat meal, semo, low fat peanut meal, kelp, there's lots of ingredients that are low enough in protein to make a mix that will carry a good winter attractor package whilst being digestible.
Of course aminos will not be balanced but this doesn't bother me in the slightest when it comes to a winter bait.
Totally respect your views on this though Peter
In reply to Post #8
Still not that easy to get really low protein. Just done a very quick 'back of envelop' mix with semo, soya, CLO, wheat germ, peanut meal and a little whey gel and it 31% protein (including eggs) and that's not including any liquid protein (which is part of the attraction so I don't want to count that). Not sure it will roll and even with the whey gel will be very soft.
My current mix is 46% crude protein and has worked all year for me in the past so just saying that you don't need to get too hung up on the less is better
I think there are two types of winter bait. That which you use in low volume and can be of low nutritional value (which anything below 30% will be, the AA profile will be rubbish and the carp just can't utilise any of it) but I plan to bait through the winter with at least a few kg a week so want to feed them something that does them good and keeps them going
Still not that easy to get really low protein. Just done a very quick 'back of envelop' mix with semo, soya, CLO, wheat germ, peanut meal and a little whey gel and it 31% protein (including eggs) and that's not including any liquid protein (which is part of the attraction so I don't want to count that). Not sure it will roll and even with the whey gel will be very soft.
My current mix is 46% crude protein and has worked all year for me in the past so just saying that you don't need to get too hung up on the less is better
I think there are two types of winter bait. That which you use in low volume and can be of low nutritional value (which anything below 30% will be, the AA profile will be rubbish and the carp just can't utilise any of it) but I plan to bait through the winter with at least a few kg a week so want to feed them something that does them good and keeps them going
In reply to Post #9
Great post content, This is such a interesting topic Pete, and I always value your input on the subject rooting for proven HNV'S all year round.
Maybe the likes of Lucky Locky, Rob Maylin, Steve Allcott, Zenon and all the other Savay lads were onto something with the high percentage egg biscuit type, Red factor/Nectarblend/Cede/semo baits way back then.
Different baits to the norm.
Coarse texture for great flavour leakage, and soften up quickly, easy to digest & pass through the carp's system quickly, a bit of carbs, fats and vitamins/minerals, that maybe that is all they need for a quick snack over winter ?
or like you, you go in with a sound HNV balanced bait and trickle that in. Which is obviously better for then carps diet.
My biggest issue with winter fishing IMHO is the constant bait application, wether you are doing it on your own, or many anglers fishing said venue ( any bait a LNV or HNV bait ) to keep them looking.
Many times, on many venues, The carp will only be caught on what is being chucked in ( any bait a LNV or HNV bait )
Also good anglers seem to catch on either bait
Think it comes down to the individual angler, budget and what they have the most confidence in TBH.
Great post content, This is such a interesting topic Pete, and I always value your input on the subject rooting for proven HNV'S all year round.
Maybe the likes of Lucky Locky, Rob Maylin, Steve Allcott, Zenon and all the other Savay lads were onto something with the high percentage egg biscuit type, Red factor/Nectarblend/Cede/semo baits way back then.
Different baits to the norm.
Coarse texture for great flavour leakage, and soften up quickly, easy to digest & pass through the carp's system quickly, a bit of carbs, fats and vitamins/minerals, that maybe that is all they need for a quick snack over winter ?
or like you, you go in with a sound HNV balanced bait and trickle that in. Which is obviously better for then carps diet.
My biggest issue with winter fishing IMHO is the constant bait application, wether you are doing it on your own, or many anglers fishing said venue ( any bait a LNV or HNV bait ) to keep them looking.
Many times, on many venues, The carp will only be caught on what is being chucked in ( any bait a LNV or HNV bait )
Also good anglers seem to catch on either bait
Think it comes down to the individual angler, budget and what they have the most confidence in TBH.
In reply to Post #9
You could get that mix lower quite easily. Use a lower protein bird food, switch in some tiger nut flour etc.
I'm not saying that I would use that mix but you could certainly make it work.
Most good mixes take quite a bit of effort, at least they do for me!
I'm definitely not saying a higher protein mix won't work, I've used many over winter. It's just my preference to drop the protein down significantly.
I also think there's more to a nutritional bait than just protein, particularly in winter.
I think this is one of the reasons why bait is so fascinating- the options are endless and people's experiences and preferences can differ greatly.
You could get that mix lower quite easily. Use a lower protein bird food, switch in some tiger nut flour etc.
I'm not saying that I would use that mix but you could certainly make it work.
Most good mixes take quite a bit of effort, at least they do for me!
I'm definitely not saying a higher protein mix won't work, I've used many over winter. It's just my preference to drop the protein down significantly.
I also think there's more to a nutritional bait than just protein, particularly in winter.
I think this is one of the reasons why bait is so fascinating- the options are endless and people's experiences and preferences can differ greatly.
In reply to Post #10
my fishmeal bait has similar quality's. nectarblend,milk powders, semo. I get a lovely texture to the bait.
I'm just never sure of fishmeals in the colder weather.
great reading on this topic though gents.
my fishmeal bait has similar quality's. nectarblend,milk powders, semo. I get a lovely texture to the bait.
I'm just never sure of fishmeals in the colder weather.
great reading on this topic though gents.
In reply to Post #11
The tiger nut flour will be higher in oil than other ingredients, so ideally you wouldn't want to go too high with it on paper.
But again plenty of high fat nut baits, for example, seem to work in winter. Which goes against the idea line of thinking.
Today's options are that many of the low temperture/pre digested better quality fishmeals are more digestible than many other bland, rolling machine friendly ingredients.
Contrary to the old days of premier baits fishbase/oil slicks and silly amounts of fish oil, now many good fishmeal baits are more balanced and sensible to use all year round.
The tiger nut flour will be higher in oil than other ingredients, so ideally you wouldn't want to go too high with it on paper.
But again plenty of high fat nut baits, for example, seem to work in winter. Which goes against the idea line of thinking.
Today's options are that many of the low temperture/pre digested better quality fishmeals are more digestible than many other bland, rolling machine friendly ingredients.
Contrary to the old days of premier baits fishbase/oil slicks and silly amounts of fish oil, now many good fishmeal baits are more balanced and sensible to use all year round.
In reply to Post #13
You could add in tiger nut flour and still keep fat low.
Just because something works does not mean it's optimal
So it doesn't go against my thinking at all!
You could add in tiger nut flour and still keep fat low.
Just because something works does not mean it's optimal
So it doesn't go against my thinking at all!
In reply to Post #10
I used to love the Savey seed mix with Bun Spice EA in it, I had my first 20 on that and it caught me a few that winter even on the coldest of nights with ice forming in the margins
Happy memories but time and understanding moves on 
I am sure high carbs with a decent attractor package will catch fish. Will it out fish a bait that also feeds the carp? A lot of people now fish with HNV (notice I didn't say high protein, that is only part of an HNV bait to me) all year and the carp do not seem any the worse for it.
I feed my pond carp all year. I do change to a lower protein pellet for the winter but its still 31% crude protein. The fish will eat 3-4 times a week quite happily even in the coldest of weather. This makes me think that if I am going to carp fish in the winter I should feed something of some nutritional value
Of course the metabolism slows right down in the colder temperatures but does it stop completely if nutrition is available?
>Also good anglers seem to catch on either bait
That is also very true but not something I have to worry about as I don't come into that class
I used to love the Savey seed mix with Bun Spice EA in it, I had my first 20 on that and it caught me a few that winter even on the coldest of nights with ice forming in the margins
Happy memories but time and understanding moves on I am sure high carbs with a decent attractor package will catch fish. Will it out fish a bait that also feeds the carp? A lot of people now fish with HNV (notice I didn't say high protein, that is only part of an HNV bait to me) all year and the carp do not seem any the worse for it.
I feed my pond carp all year. I do change to a lower protein pellet for the winter but its still 31% crude protein. The fish will eat 3-4 times a week quite happily even in the coldest of weather. This makes me think that if I am going to carp fish in the winter I should feed something of some nutritional value
Of course the metabolism slows right down in the colder temperatures but does it stop completely if nutrition is available?>Also good anglers seem to catch on either bait
That is also very true but not something I have to worry about as I don't come into that class