Hi guys
My lad works for a commercial nursery producing patio plants, basically decorative plants.
He feels they' should not be working at present so is not going in.
They have sent him a letter saying they want him in as he is a key worker. Several others can do his job so that's rubbish. They have also threatened him with dismissal if you doesn't go in. He's not short of money at present but has a mortgage so will need to be employed somewhere later
He's probably going to ask my advice later so any opinions and advice welcome.
My lad works for a commercial nursery producing patio plants, basically decorative plants.
He feels they' should not be working at present so is not going in.
They have sent him a letter saying they want him in as he is a key worker. Several others can do his job so that's rubbish. They have also threatened him with dismissal if you doesn't go in. He's not short of money at present but has a mortgage so will need to be employed somewhere later
He's probably going to ask my advice later so any opinions and advice welcome.
In reply to Post #1
The good news is they have sent him a letter, evidence enough, if it says dismissal that's even better still
I don't think growing non edible plant essential work is it?
Deffo worth the hassle, a free 20 minute consultation with a solicitor should put his mind at rest. They don't have a leg to stand on.
However, sounds like a Mickey Mouse company to me and I guess they could make his life difficult, afterwards, ****s
Fight fire with fire, tell him to go and have a consultation. Anything from the Mickey Mouse company, try and get it in writing or email
The good news is they have sent him a letter, evidence enough, if it says dismissal that's even better still
I don't think growing non edible plant essential work is it?
Deffo worth the hassle, a free 20 minute consultation with a solicitor should put his mind at rest. They don't have a leg to stand on.
However, sounds like a Mickey Mouse company to me and I guess they could make his life difficult, afterwards, ****s
Fight fire with fire, tell him to go and have a consultation. Anything from the Mickey Mouse company, try and get it in writing or email
In reply to Post #2
On enquiring further it was a general statement that had a double meaning.
Basically “If you don't come in it may affect your employment at a later date”
I now have more info and most pressure applied to him has been verbal rather than in a letter.
That's the problem getting info via a third person ( wife)
As you say they will probably make his life difficult afterwards.
Just had a chat with him and he believes it's wrong that they are working and is going to stick to his principles. Doesn't like the thought that he might spread the virus if someone at work has it.
He reckons the company may be forced to close in a week or so anyway but I'm not so sure.
They have of course said keep 2 metres apart but in practice it's not really possible.
On enquiring further it was a general statement that had a double meaning.
Basically “If you don't come in it may affect your employment at a later date”
I now have more info and most pressure applied to him has been verbal rather than in a letter.
That's the problem getting info via a third person ( wife)
As you say they will probably make his life difficult afterwards.
Just had a chat with him and he believes it's wrong that they are working and is going to stick to his principles. Doesn't like the thought that he might spread the virus if someone at work has it.
He reckons the company may be forced to close in a week or so anyway but I'm not so sure.
They have of course said keep 2 metres apart but in practice it's not really possible.
In reply to Post #3
Absolutely no reason why they should be trading, non essential, on another point, who's buying plants!!!
Good on the lad for sticking to his principles. I think the underlying message is clear though for me, time to move on after this. Go and work for somebody who respects him is my advise. End of the day people are businesses biggest asset. Sounds like he's just a number to this Mickey Mouse outfit
It's a tricky one. Where I work we are shutting down this week after a lot of confusion and frustration across the board. They provided everybody with a letter for people travelling too and from work so if the police pulled you could issue it claiming the business was essential, seems it's not now, wonder if that's because they can claim back 80% of the wages...
For me this government needs to step in and say, STOP 🛑
Absolutely no reason why they should be trading, non essential, on another point, who's buying plants!!!
Good on the lad for sticking to his principles. I think the underlying message is clear though for me, time to move on after this. Go and work for somebody who respects him is my advise. End of the day people are businesses biggest asset. Sounds like he's just a number to this Mickey Mouse outfit
It's a tricky one. Where I work we are shutting down this week after a lot of confusion and frustration across the board. They provided everybody with a letter for people travelling too and from work so if the police pulled you could issue it claiming the business was essential, seems it's not now, wonder if that's because they can claim back 80% of the wages...
For me this government needs to step in and say, STOP 🛑
In reply to Post #4
Only reason I can think they are still working is the boss has a contract to supply plants so as long as he delivers them he expects to be paid. The chances of the recipient being able to use the plants is slim but as they......a contract is a contract
Someone local with some authority should order them to close down
Only reason I can think they are still working is the boss has a contract to supply plants so as long as he delivers them he expects to be paid. The chances of the recipient being able to use the plants is slim but as they......a contract is a contract
Someone local with some authority should order them to close down
In reply to Post #5
It's not a good situation at all and a terrible time for small businesses and t will close a lot down sadly but something has to give somewhere along the line to stop this crazy situation, somehow!
It's not a good situation at all and a terrible time for small businesses and t will close a lot down sadly but something has to give somewhere along the line to stop this crazy situation, somehow!
In reply to Post #4
Always a problem when a painful decision has to be made by a company.
This one will be hiding behind the horticultural tag so classed as being food production, which of course they are not, so definitely non essential.
They are obviously in a difficult situation as they are producing for a few months ahead so I understand why they want to keep running even though orders are being cancelled now and for the coming few weeks.
80% of the wages probably would be enough long term compensation for them though, so at present they are refusing to take the responsible route. Definitely time for the government to step in on this one and no doubt lots of others doing the same.
If they don't then we all know the lock down will not have its desired effect and will need to be longer for the ones doing the right thing.
I agree that it is probably time for him to leave and he has already thought about working elsewhere if he gets the push.
No doubt they won't dismiss him though if he calls their bluff, that would make a too good a story for the media, but I can imagine he won't have a good future there.
Always a problem when a painful decision has to be made by a company.
This one will be hiding behind the horticultural tag so classed as being food production, which of course they are not, so definitely non essential.
They are obviously in a difficult situation as they are producing for a few months ahead so I understand why they want to keep running even though orders are being cancelled now and for the coming few weeks.
80% of the wages probably would be enough long term compensation for them though, so at present they are refusing to take the responsible route. Definitely time for the government to step in on this one and no doubt lots of others doing the same.
If they don't then we all know the lock down will not have its desired effect and will need to be longer for the ones doing the right thing.
I agree that it is probably time for him to leave and he has already thought about working elsewhere if he gets the push.
No doubt they won't dismiss him though if he calls their bluff, that would make a too good a story for the media, but I can imagine he won't have a good future there.
In reply to Post #7
The more I think about this and the 80% figure sticks in my mind. I guess if you cannot manage on the 80% they must class you as financially ****ed or not viable? The parameter has got to come from somewhere and I guessing some peoples high level serious thinking to come out with it
At what point do you have to shut down or when is it viable for them 99.9% or 100%, that will never happen, what's the point in people working when everyone can sit on their arse for free. 110%, forget it
The more I think about this and the 80% figure sticks in my mind. I guess if you cannot manage on the 80% they must class you as financially ****ed or not viable? The parameter has got to come from somewhere and I guessing some peoples high level serious thinking to come out with it
At what point do you have to shut down or when is it viable for them 99.9% or 100%, that will never happen, what's the point in people working when everyone can sit on their arse for free. 110%, forget it
In reply to Post #7
Slight development.
As he has not been attending work since the lockdown they have taken this as his resignation and have sent him a form to sign saying as such.
Slight development.
As he has not been attending work since the lockdown they have taken this as his resignation and have sent him a form to sign saying as such.
In reply to Post #9
Do not sign or return it. Save it
I would send them a letter or email, something in writing, ask them to explain this letter and the thinking behind it, then he can also explain his reasons for not attending work. Not working two metres apart, constant close contact with other employees, no PPE provisions etc. Keep it simple and don't put too much into it so that they could use it as counter evidence. Just the real reasons ONLY why he will not attend work.
They will have to provide and guarantee a safe working environment for their staff. If they can provide this then he should go back to work. They have a duty of care.
See what they come back with, don't ask them for it but ideally you need it in writing, just how they have wrote to your lad
If he goes back to work and the fore mentioned is not provided, get a few pictures if possible and save them. Do not tell them. Go and speak to them, explain the reasons why he is going home.
See what they come back with. Solicitors if he wants to pursue it. A 20 minute consultation is usually free. Keeping an accurate diary of events would be useful, dates, conversation notes, who with etc.
Like is said earlier though mate. Sounds like a Mickey Mouse outfit, does he REALLY want to work there moving forward? Sometimes it's better to close the door behind you and learn from that experience
Do not sign or return it. Save it
I would send them a letter or email, something in writing, ask them to explain this letter and the thinking behind it, then he can also explain his reasons for not attending work. Not working two metres apart, constant close contact with other employees, no PPE provisions etc. Keep it simple and don't put too much into it so that they could use it as counter evidence. Just the real reasons ONLY why he will not attend work.
They will have to provide and guarantee a safe working environment for their staff. If they can provide this then he should go back to work. They have a duty of care.
See what they come back with, don't ask them for it but ideally you need it in writing, just how they have wrote to your lad
If he goes back to work and the fore mentioned is not provided, get a few pictures if possible and save them. Do not tell them. Go and speak to them, explain the reasons why he is going home.
See what they come back with. Solicitors if he wants to pursue it. A 20 minute consultation is usually free. Keeping an accurate diary of events would be useful, dates, conversation notes, who with etc.
Like is said earlier though mate. Sounds like a Mickey Mouse outfit, does he REALLY want to work there moving forward? Sometimes it's better to close the door behind you and learn from that experience
In reply to Post #10
Thanks Mate
That's pretty much what I have advised him. Email rather than phone because his last call was “distorted” let's say. They just picked the bits they wanted. Diary of events would be good. I've suggested a call to citizens advice if they are working.
The company is good at ticking boxes like the two metre rule but in practice that doesn't work with 60 or so staff in busy greenhouses. Multi person handling must also be a big risk and they cannot avoid all of that, especially on conveyer belt production.
I've suggested an email saying he doesn't believe they should be working as it's against gov lockdown rules for non essential businesses.
As you say time to move on but probably not the best time to find another job though.
Thanks Mate
That's pretty much what I have advised him. Email rather than phone because his last call was “distorted” let's say. They just picked the bits they wanted. Diary of events would be good. I've suggested a call to citizens advice if they are working.
The company is good at ticking boxes like the two metre rule but in practice that doesn't work with 60 or so staff in busy greenhouses. Multi person handling must also be a big risk and they cannot avoid all of that, especially on conveyer belt production.
I've suggested an email saying he doesn't believe they should be working as it's against gov lockdown rules for non essential businesses.
As you say time to move on but probably not the best time to find another job though.
In reply to Post #11
Found something out for you Ian. What you can do i believe is report the company to your local council. They have duty of care and have to go out and investigate the business and can shut it down if not deemed as essential. Worth a call
The Government has issued new enforcement powers to enable local authorities, supported by the police, to take action to deal with non-compliance with directions to close. Other powers may become available to deal with other unacceptable trading practices.
Loads on the government website
As set out in the section on staying at home, you can travel for work purposes, but only where you cannot work from home.
With the exception of the organisations covered above in the section on closing certain businesses and venues, the government has not required any other businesses to close – indeed it is important for business to carry on.
Employers and employees should discuss their working arrangements, and employers should take every possible step to facilitate their employees working from home, including providing suitable IT and equipment to enable remote working.
Sometimes this will not be possible, as not everyone can work from home. Certain jobs require people to travel to, from and for their work – for instance if they operate machinery, work in construction or manufacturing, or are delivering front line services.
If you cannot work from home then you can still travel for work purposes, provided you are not showing coronavirus symptoms and neither you nor any of your household are self-isolating. This is consistent with advice from the Chief Medical Officer.
Employers who have people in their offices or onsite should ensure that employees are able to follow Public Health England guidelines including, where possible, maintaining a 2 metre distance from others, and washing their hands with soap and water often for at least 20 seconds (or using hand sanitiser gel if soap and water is not available).
Work carried out in people's homes, for example by tradespeople carrying out repairs and maintenance, can continue, provided that the tradesperson is well and has no symptoms. Again, it will be important to ensure that Public Health England guidelines, including maintaining a 2 metre distance from any household occupants, are followed to ensure everyone's safety.
No work should be carried out in any household which is isolating or where an individual is being shielded, unless it is to remedy a direct risk to the safety of the household, such as emergency plumbing or repairs, and where the tradesperson is willing to do so. In such cases, Public Health England can provide advice to tradespeople and households.
No work should be carried out by a tradesperson who has coronavirus symptoms, however mild.
As set out in the section on closing certain businesses and venues, the Government has published guidance on which organisations are covered by this requirement. Advice for employees of these organisations on employment and financial support is available at gov.uk/coronavirus.
At all times, workers should follow the guidance on self-isolation if they or anyone in their household shows symptoms.
Found something out for you Ian. What you can do i believe is report the company to your local council. They have duty of care and have to go out and investigate the business and can shut it down if not deemed as essential. Worth a call
The Government has issued new enforcement powers to enable local authorities, supported by the police, to take action to deal with non-compliance with directions to close. Other powers may become available to deal with other unacceptable trading practices.
Loads on the government website
As set out in the section on staying at home, you can travel for work purposes, but only where you cannot work from home.
With the exception of the organisations covered above in the section on closing certain businesses and venues, the government has not required any other businesses to close – indeed it is important for business to carry on.
Employers and employees should discuss their working arrangements, and employers should take every possible step to facilitate their employees working from home, including providing suitable IT and equipment to enable remote working.
Sometimes this will not be possible, as not everyone can work from home. Certain jobs require people to travel to, from and for their work – for instance if they operate machinery, work in construction or manufacturing, or are delivering front line services.
If you cannot work from home then you can still travel for work purposes, provided you are not showing coronavirus symptoms and neither you nor any of your household are self-isolating. This is consistent with advice from the Chief Medical Officer.
Employers who have people in their offices or onsite should ensure that employees are able to follow Public Health England guidelines including, where possible, maintaining a 2 metre distance from others, and washing their hands with soap and water often for at least 20 seconds (or using hand sanitiser gel if soap and water is not available).
Work carried out in people's homes, for example by tradespeople carrying out repairs and maintenance, can continue, provided that the tradesperson is well and has no symptoms. Again, it will be important to ensure that Public Health England guidelines, including maintaining a 2 metre distance from any household occupants, are followed to ensure everyone's safety.
No work should be carried out in any household which is isolating or where an individual is being shielded, unless it is to remedy a direct risk to the safety of the household, such as emergency plumbing or repairs, and where the tradesperson is willing to do so. In such cases, Public Health England can provide advice to tradespeople and households.
No work should be carried out by a tradesperson who has coronavirus symptoms, however mild.
As set out in the section on closing certain businesses and venues, the Government has published guidance on which organisations are covered by this requirement. Advice for employees of these organisations on employment and financial support is available at gov.uk/coronavirus.
At all times, workers should follow the guidance on self-isolation if they or anyone in their household shows symptoms.
In reply to Post #12
I did contact my local MPs office but all I've got back so far is a standard guidance link. Doesn't include anything about factory type production, essential or otherwise. Maybe later hopefully.
We will talk to the council especially if his email is badly received.
Thanks Chris
I did contact my local MPs office but all I've got back so far is a standard guidance link. Doesn't include anything about factory type production, essential or otherwise. Maybe later hopefully.
We will talk to the council especially if his email is badly received.
Thanks Chris
In reply to Post #13
Tell him to contact ACAS
Tell him to contact ACAS
In reply to Post #13
I saw on the news that employees at at a large ASOS warehouse had done the same. ASOS got word of the visit and apparently before the council visited they put a load of measures in place!
The employees are still complaining though
I saw on the news that employees at at a large ASOS warehouse had done the same. ASOS got word of the visit and apparently before the council visited they put a load of measures in place!
The employees are still complaining though
I'd imagine for a nursery, shutting down for a few weeks would mean a huge loss, and massive costs to start up again. Would this business remain solvent after that?
In reply to Post #16
I guess that's the unfortunate and sad side to all of this, same with any business, but I would say, what's more important, peoples health or somebody's pocket?
If they are still operating they need to make sure they comply with the recommendations otherwise they could kill somebody, that's the sad reality
I guess that's the unfortunate and sad side to all of this, same with any business, but I would say, what's more important, peoples health or somebody's pocket?
If they are still operating they need to make sure they comply with the recommendations otherwise they could kill somebody, that's the sad reality
In reply to Post #17
Of course, these are crazy times, we've all got to look after ourselves, but it sounds like the sort of firm that'll likely fold if they shut down, I'd be looking at it and deciding whether it's possible and safe to keep going, getting enough employees together to press the message to management. If they can't comply with the safety measures I'd be out the door.
I don't really get what the guy is hoping for, he won't be furloughed while the firm are still operating, and if they close he probably wouldn't have a job anyway.
I haven't been employed by a company in a bloody long time so my thoughts may not comply with modern hr practices
Of course, these are crazy times, we've all got to look after ourselves, but it sounds like the sort of firm that'll likely fold if they shut down, I'd be looking at it and deciding whether it's possible and safe to keep going, getting enough employees together to press the message to management. If they can't comply with the safety measures I'd be out the door.
I don't really get what the guy is hoping for, he won't be furloughed while the firm are still operating, and if they close he probably wouldn't have a job anyway.
I haven't been employed by a company in a bloody long time so my thoughts may not comply with modern hr practices
In reply to Post #18
Similar thoughts to me mate, I would be gone. The good news is, it sounds like you are working for a decent company, priceless these day mate
Similar thoughts to me mate, I would be gone. The good news is, it sounds like you are working for a decent company, priceless these day mate
In reply to Post #19
My boss is a bit of a **** tbh
I work for myself
My boss is a bit of a **** tbh
I work for myself
In reply to Post #18
The firm would definitely not fold for want of a years profit. Also they could easily run with a skeleton staff to maintain existing plants and when the lockdown finished then with a little work would be running again.
I've had a couple of conversations with mates of mine still working there, everyone is worried especially as what they are doing is in reality unsafe but they are pretending to comply to regulations. My lad has refused to work as he is concerned about spreading infection but is alone in this. No one else will stand up to the management as they are quite ruthless. He is happy to be unpaid at this time or worse case even be unemployed rather than forsake his principles. Presumably others are not or do not want to risk their jobs.
One major problem apart from staying 2 metres apart is that trays, trolleys etc are passed from person to person every few seconds so an easy transition path for the virus if it gets there.
I've read some interesting guidelines today for production of decorative plants and they are classed as non essential in France Belgium, Germany and the UK. Other countries such as the USA deem them essential for some reason.
The firm would definitely not fold for want of a years profit. Also they could easily run with a skeleton staff to maintain existing plants and when the lockdown finished then with a little work would be running again.
I've had a couple of conversations with mates of mine still working there, everyone is worried especially as what they are doing is in reality unsafe but they are pretending to comply to regulations. My lad has refused to work as he is concerned about spreading infection but is alone in this. No one else will stand up to the management as they are quite ruthless. He is happy to be unpaid at this time or worse case even be unemployed rather than forsake his principles. Presumably others are not or do not want to risk their jobs.
One major problem apart from staying 2 metres apart is that trays, trolleys etc are passed from person to person every few seconds so an easy transition path for the virus if it gets there.
I've read some interesting guidelines today for production of decorative plants and they are classed as non essential in France Belgium, Germany and the UK. Other countries such as the USA deem them essential for some reason.
In reply to Post #20
Nuff said
Nuff said
If he has been there for less than 2 years he will have pretty much no protection anyway, they could use any reason to let him go I think.
I'm fairly sure that there are still lots of non key professions running, not all businesses have been closed down. I think the current rules are to work from home if you can, but if this is not possible then in to work you go.
Madness as pictured most days with tube trains in London being packed etc. Building sites still running as normal and lots of other workers.
But good for him sticking to realising that his health is more important
I'm fairly sure that there are still lots of non key professions running, not all businesses have been closed down. I think the current rules are to work from home if you can, but if this is not possible then in to work you go.
Madness as pictured most days with tube trains in London being packed etc. Building sites still running as normal and lots of other workers.
But good for him sticking to realising that his health is more important
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