In reply to Post #159
Hi Viking,
The flux rate was the most difficult part indeed. Concentration in the water isn't a problem while massive feeding with pellets treated with the solutions but a real issue for singles or a limited prebaiting with boilies.
Though the effective range boundaries aren't too narrow for Lys/Val molar ratio for example and easily achievable during construction of a recipe it's impossible to achieve the ratio for the groups of aminos these two AA belongs to.
Frankly I didn't get any noticeable results with these solutions perhaps due to flux factor unsolved.
Neither I got with bait made as close to 1,5 ratio as possible (by itself). It was as effective as other HNV baits I made. Nothing special. Nothing close to “involuntary feeding”. It was just impossible to know the free Lys/ free Val ratio because of the absence of the such data for all basemix ingredients.

As to S-Core the bait it was very peculiar ... being very dependent on place and conditions. It was catching on a very small spots on both ponds I was testing it ignoring the rest places at the ponds completely.

Fishmeal has very close to 1.5 Lys/Val ratio. That's why I recommended BB to stick with it in your experiments.
I suppose the Enzyme bait might've been so successful due to ability of enzymes inside to broke fishmeal proteins in quantities close to the ratio needed. But this is just a guess of course.
FPM

In reply to Post #157
Hi Christian
Orange dye is an attractor itself according to Jay Rider rating.

In reply to Post #154
Hi BB,
What AA do you consider best in term of attraction I wonder? The thing is the list is changing constantly. It is mentioned that MM is playing with three of them. Which ones may I ask? Hara, Kasumyan, Wood ? Or Patric Mills favorites - Lys, Val and Gly? Or in between?
One of the P.Mills combinations is the S-Core by Richworth. Well, it works. Sometimes.
Yes, I've caught 6 fish during three hours on wild water once. Only once.
But how about the “old school” most effective- alanine, proline, cysteine... ? In the field not tank conditions?

Did you try FeedStim Winter and Summer amino Compounds? What were results if any? I didn't notice any difference personally.... not between them but with and without them.

I've read the UCN thread. It seems it was a great bait indeed and worth of resurrection. If you try to repeat the success of this bait I wish you success. Sincerely. Just stick to Pete's recipe. Fishmeal is the right ingredient for this concept of the bait. .

Just keep in mind a Tigernut as a bait or a sweet corn. Both with low protein content - 8-9%.

I agree to disagree .... though I'm a HNV fan myself

P.S. and what about Spanish 2?

In reply to Post #142

Right. Whatever you want. Fat, salt content, ratios between ingredients, between aminos, non protein ingredients ...etc . The most difficult part of it is to find data of AA composition of ingredients and it's most impossible in case mixes (like bird foods or spice mixes).
Data of free aminos content is another lever.

S&D
I recall you question concerning milky proteins. There is another feature of their attractiveness to carp. Once broken they give some chemical cues into the water familiar to the fish. The right ones cues.

In reply to Post #138
Hi Poots,
It's just an Excel spreadsheet I was presented with when I started learning how to make baits. It's all about calculating AA composition of a bait. Everyone can make it for himself. I was lucky not to begin from a zero point. I've enhanced it a lot of course. It contains AA profiles of 100+ base mix ingredients I may choose from.
In short it is a tool to make HNV bait fast and easy provided that you now basics about ingredients and their role in a mix.

In reply to Post #81
Hi NW,
Into continuation of anti-attractant topic. The rubbish one.

I googled some words and found out that there is a new science - Marine chemical ecology called.

Lot of interesting.
“Chemical cues play critical roles at every level in marine systems, but the omnipresence and impact of these cues are inadequately recognized. For most marine species, chemical cues determine whether they consume, fight with, run from, or mate with the creature next to them—as well as whether they are eaten by, infected by, or overgrown by natural enemies. Individuals can assess sex, social status, and even whether a potential mate is sperm depleted or sperm sufficient using chemical cues. These cues can be so powerful that male crustaceans will guard, carry, and attempt to mate with sponges, air-stones, rocks, or golf balls if these have been treated with the correct pheromone (Asai et al. 2000, Hardege et al. 2002, Breithaupt & Thiel 2008).”

The last sentence is for BB (hi BB) attention especially. I doubt AA are able to provoke such a strong behavioral response as pheromones do.

Among other functions of such chemical cues is one quit wondrous. There such micro beasts as microbes and bacteria as you may know. So there are findings that they can guard their food “ ....bacteria compete with larger animal scavengers by rendering carcasses chemically repugnant. Because food-fall resources such as carrion are major food subsidies in many ecosystems (Britton & Morton 1994)”
Now, let's imagine that these beasts suddenly got a lot of easy and tasty food as our hydros which are protein broken by enzymes alike a carrion on the bottom. What will you do being a microbe (a hungry one)? Right ! You will try to contain the food for yourself - making “carcasses (of a bait) chemically repugnant”.

So, I doubt that microbes are able to frighten such a big animal as carp, but they make do it towards zooplankton. And what is zooplankton for carp? Right - food. But not only food but a marker of calmness and security. No Zoo around bait - no interest from fish side.

We know very little about underwater chemical language as far as I see so it may be not a rubbish at all.

In reply to Post #126
Hi NW,
I run the recipe through my program and think that coconut meal there is for “add fat” purpose.
To open up the milk taste might be another.
FPM

In reply to Post #133
Hi Christian,

It may be an “empty” zero protein bait catching very good due to flavor and a decently made boil without flavor (and EO) doing the same.

The story is that I took part as a tester in a little competition of baits provided by new bait companies in my country. There were four testers only. 1 kg of boilies from each bait company we're given to all testers. And they had to fish with this 4 kg of boilies during the whole season. 5 months in Russia it is. All baits proved to be effective at the end.
The first two places took boilies as described. The winner was plain semolina by look. The second one was made without any liquids except eggs and was hard as rock.
These results ware a great revelation for me as I am a rookie baitmaker as it shows that quite different approach to bat construction have a right to live. In this respect joining the forum recently I was not surprised to success of Mark's Spanish 2 bait.

My personal baitmaking experience though very modest shows approximately the same. Every time that I make a new bait the unflavored version is tested first. And catches fish in most cases.

So. I would make my ultimate bait in full conformity with your plan but I do know now that it may be unnecessary to include all this ingredients in the mix.

Hi BB
I can't say definitely about percentage (90/10) either as it is may vice versa just as easily.

In reply to Post #126
You are wellcome!
FMR omega it's a soy concentrate from Holland, its AA profile is similar to Standard fishmeal. A substitution in fact.

In reply to Post #1
Hi HW,
And here you are.

Sweet milk bait. from TheBaitMan

FMR omega - 25%
Cornmeal (white) - 20%
Nutrilac. - 20%
Yogurt powder. - 12%
Miccelar Casein - 4%
WPC 80. - 3%
Whey Hydrolisate- 4%
Egg albumin - 2%
Lactose 20 - 3%
Coconut powder - 5%
Niger seeds - 2%
Poppy seeds - 2%

Eggs. - 4-5
CSL liquid - 15ml

To freeze immediately after rolling