Hi,
I find myself down the bait/boilie rabbit hole! I understand that many companies can't produce bait to the highest standard bait quality wise without it affecting prices that many anglers won't pay. One thing that I'm questioning is the importance of protein levels in a bait. I have seen that most bait firms have a sub 30% protein level. Am I right in saying that a higher protein bait with a good attractor/flavour will be more effective?
Also how important is fat levels in a bait and is there a specific ratio between the macro nutrients?
Hope my questions make sense but if I'm barking up the wrong tree let me know.
I find myself down the bait/boilie rabbit hole! I understand that many companies can't produce bait to the highest standard bait quality wise without it affecting prices that many anglers won't pay. One thing that I'm questioning is the importance of protein levels in a bait. I have seen that most bait firms have a sub 30% protein level. Am I right in saying that a higher protein bait with a good attractor/flavour will be more effective?
Also how important is fat levels in a bait and is there a specific ratio between the macro nutrients?
Hope my questions make sense but if I'm barking up the wrong tree let me know.
In reply to Post #1
any living creature can only use a certain amount of protein, above that level is pure waste and pointless
any living creature can only use a certain amount of protein, above that level is pure waste and pointless
In reply to Post #1
Most the good quality fishmeal baits out there are much higher than 30% lol.
Protein is best thought of as an umbrella term in bait construction, and pure measured protein doesn't correlated to what would be termed as "available" protein to fish. a good read up on balanced amino acid profiles, sources both animal and vegetal of protein, as well as what function the rest of your ingredients play in the bait are very relevant factors to bare in mind. having an extremely fibrous bait in inherently reduces intestinal cycle speed for lack of a better word, they pass it before making meaningful use of the nutrients within it. and its not as simple as upping the protein to account for this.
Very very few commercially available baits have been put together with this in mind, which is fundamental and almost basic, however not all baits are designed to be nutritionally high in value, despite the sales blurb.
A higher protein level MAY work to your advantage based on the free amino acid content, however don't necessarily look at protein as the fish catcher, more, the trade off in terms of supplied nutrients to the lake in return for yanking a few residents out lip first lol!
With regards to Fat, its extremely important in a bait, as are all nutrients, but again, much like with humans, different fats have different functions within baits.
Regarding macro nutrients, very very few bait makers work out the macro nutrient levels of there baits before lobbing in a spoonful or two of vitamin supplements and blindly hoping its addressed it ( it will address some dependant on the pre addition state of your bait ).
In short unless you've the knowledge, time, and expense to be able to play with this topic long term, its going to be a much easier to take different routes to increasing the attractiveness of your bait. I recommend now, as I always have, a natural impact type route such as hydrolysates, extracts, powdered additives etc, as opposed to synthetic flavours.
Good Luck
Most the good quality fishmeal baits out there are much higher than 30% lol.
Protein is best thought of as an umbrella term in bait construction, and pure measured protein doesn't correlated to what would be termed as "available" protein to fish. a good read up on balanced amino acid profiles, sources both animal and vegetal of protein, as well as what function the rest of your ingredients play in the bait are very relevant factors to bare in mind. having an extremely fibrous bait in inherently reduces intestinal cycle speed for lack of a better word, they pass it before making meaningful use of the nutrients within it. and its not as simple as upping the protein to account for this.
Very very few commercially available baits have been put together with this in mind, which is fundamental and almost basic, however not all baits are designed to be nutritionally high in value, despite the sales blurb.
A higher protein level MAY work to your advantage based on the free amino acid content, however don't necessarily look at protein as the fish catcher, more, the trade off in terms of supplied nutrients to the lake in return for yanking a few residents out lip first lol!
With regards to Fat, its extremely important in a bait, as are all nutrients, but again, much like with humans, different fats have different functions within baits.
Regarding macro nutrients, very very few bait makers work out the macro nutrient levels of there baits before lobbing in a spoonful or two of vitamin supplements and blindly hoping its addressed it ( it will address some dependant on the pre addition state of your bait ).
In short unless you've the knowledge, time, and expense to be able to play with this topic long term, its going to be a much easier to take different routes to increasing the attractiveness of your bait. I recommend now, as I always have, a natural impact type route such as hydrolysates, extracts, powdered additives etc, as opposed to synthetic flavours.
Good Luck
In reply to Post #1
Nutritional understanding can send you through that rabbit hole.
Protein is not just protein!
They are made up of amino acids, of which carp have a requirement for specific essential amino acids.
Essential amino acids have to be provided by the food, non Essential amino acids can be synthesised from Essential AA's.
I can copy and paste the EAA's from a study of the Japanese Society of Fisheries Science.
It was found that there were no distinct differences in the EAA requirements between carp and rainbow trout. The comtents of EAA in the dietary proteins (%) needed to satisfy the requirements of carp and rainbow trout were; leucine, 4.1, 4.4, isoleucine, 2.3, 2.4, valine, 2.9, 3.1, threonine, 3.3, 3.4, phenylalanine, 2.9, 3.1, tyrosine, 2.0, 2.1, methionine, 1.6, 1.8, cystine, 0.8, 0.9, tryptophan, 0.6 0.5, arginine, 3.8, 3.5, histidine, 1.4, 1.6, and lysine, 5.3 and 5.3,
Not all food items contain all of the EAA'S, so, for example, vegetable proteins are not a complete useable protein, their is a requirement for some food containing the other EAA'S, be that a fish, meat, fungal or yeast protein.
Then we come to energy requirements. The need for energy has to be fulfilled before nutrition!
All 3 of carbohydrates, fats and proteins provide energy, BUT, why waste protein as an energy source when fat and carbohydrates do the same?
Fish meal for ages was the obvious source, until overfishing and increased prices has made it expensive in a bait.
Then you have additional nutritional requirements, for vitamins and minerals, which may come from different sources. A protein provider does not always provide the required vitamins and minerals.
The simple way to provide everything required was a mix of milk proteins, birdfoods, fishmeal. Think Big Fix Mix, Trigga, Premier baits, and others.
You had all of your Vitamins and minerals and your EAA'S, your energy sources.
You can kill a good bait with too high flavour levels!
Nutritional understanding can send you through that rabbit hole.
Protein is not just protein!
They are made up of amino acids, of which carp have a requirement for specific essential amino acids.
Essential amino acids have to be provided by the food, non Essential amino acids can be synthesised from Essential AA's.
I can copy and paste the EAA's from a study of the Japanese Society of Fisheries Science.
It was found that there were no distinct differences in the EAA requirements between carp and rainbow trout. The comtents of EAA in the dietary proteins (%) needed to satisfy the requirements of carp and rainbow trout were; leucine, 4.1, 4.4, isoleucine, 2.3, 2.4, valine, 2.9, 3.1, threonine, 3.3, 3.4, phenylalanine, 2.9, 3.1, tyrosine, 2.0, 2.1, methionine, 1.6, 1.8, cystine, 0.8, 0.9, tryptophan, 0.6 0.5, arginine, 3.8, 3.5, histidine, 1.4, 1.6, and lysine, 5.3 and 5.3,
Not all food items contain all of the EAA'S, so, for example, vegetable proteins are not a complete useable protein, their is a requirement for some food containing the other EAA'S, be that a fish, meat, fungal or yeast protein.
Then we come to energy requirements. The need for energy has to be fulfilled before nutrition!
All 3 of carbohydrates, fats and proteins provide energy, BUT, why waste protein as an energy source when fat and carbohydrates do the same?
Fish meal for ages was the obvious source, until overfishing and increased prices has made it expensive in a bait.
Then you have additional nutritional requirements, for vitamins and minerals, which may come from different sources. A protein provider does not always provide the required vitamins and minerals.
The simple way to provide everything required was a mix of milk proteins, birdfoods, fishmeal. Think Big Fix Mix, Trigga, Premier baits, and others.
You had all of your Vitamins and minerals and your EAA'S, your energy sources.
You can kill a good bait with too high flavour levels!
Thanks for your responses. So if you only have access to commercial bait. What is the best way to firstly to identify a good bait and secondly enhance a standard bait to something that is a more attractive meal? There are glugs,dips,powders that can be used but surely if a better made boilie can be identified its a win win.
In reply to Post #5
I won't answer the first part, as a Boilie Producer I'd be bias, but you can certainly intensify and amplify the food signals off of most baits.
My favourite thing to do was always let some baits soak in a quality hydrolysate for two days, ad a sprinkle of powders like GLM, salt, krill meal etc but not much, so its still basically wet, then a day later glaze with hemp oil.
very very very good if streuggling to get fish to feed in the bottom thermoclines.
However an easier option for a lot of people is mixing a hydro 50-50 with warm water and letting that soak into the core of the baits, then dusting with groundbait
I won't answer the first part, as a Boilie Producer I'd be bias, but you can certainly intensify and amplify the food signals off of most baits.
My favourite thing to do was always let some baits soak in a quality hydrolysate for two days, ad a sprinkle of powders like GLM, salt, krill meal etc but not much, so its still basically wet, then a day later glaze with hemp oil.
very very very good if streuggling to get fish to feed in the bottom thermoclines.
However an easier option for a lot of people is mixing a hydro 50-50 with warm water and letting that soak into the core of the baits, then dusting with groundbait
In reply to Post #6
Please do give your point on bait production mate (don't give up to many secrets haha).
I soak my baits in water and add salt and glaze with a liquid. I have never really used GLM as much as I should used to use squid powder.
Please do give your point on bait production mate (don't give up to many secrets haha).
I soak my baits in water and add salt and glaze with a liquid. I have never really used GLM as much as I should used to use squid powder.
In reply to Post #1
I've enjoyed listening to many of the podcasts on the Carp Chronicles or Carp Cast with some very informative bait brains with varying ideas on the same subjects, I've come to the conclusion who knows whats right they all have varying ideas and thought processes.
Don't go down the rabbit hole would be my advice.
I've enjoyed listening to many of the podcasts on the Carp Chronicles or Carp Cast with some very informative bait brains with varying ideas on the same subjects, I've come to the conclusion who knows whats right they all have varying ideas and thought processes.
Don't go down the rabbit hole would be my advice.
In reply to Post #8
And don't forget that the most balanced, nutritious bait won't necessarily catch you the most fish. The best bait is the one the fish want to eat the most of.
There's a difference between best bait for catching fish and best food source.
And don't forget that the most balanced, nutritious bait won't necessarily catch you the most fish. The best bait is the one the fish want to eat the most of.
There's a difference between best bait for catching fish and best food source.
In reply to Post #7
N o I mean I won't recommend anything as I'd be bias lol
N o I mean I won't recommend anything as I'd be bias lol
In reply to Post #9
They're a hell of a lot closer linked than you think in some cases, And I feel there is a responsibility to get good food into the lake especially if subjecting fish to trauma etc nutrient Rich environment to recover.
They're a hell of a lot closer linked than you think in some cases, And I feel there is a responsibility to get good food into the lake especially if subjecting fish to trauma etc nutrient Rich environment to recover.
In reply to Post #11
What bait do you make as you seem knowlegable
What bait do you make as you seem knowlegable
In reply to Post #8
Yeah make you right!
Yeah make you right!
In reply to Post #11
They're a hell of a lot closer linked than you think in some cases
That's an oxymoron isn't it?
They're a hell of a lot closer linked than you think in some cases
That's an oxymoron isn't it?
In reply to Post #9
If you can feed with a good boilie it can be the best food source available.
Enough of a good food source boilie can get the fish off naturals, although I would say it can be difficult to put enough in to do that on some waters.
That decent food source boilie can also have the fish taking that in preference to any other bait.
I have seen it happen on more than one occasion.
The original Grange CSL (it's full and proper name), named after the Essex Grange, was baited in so much quantity, that the carp in the lake would not take anything else, and the fish grew in weight on a water that did not have the biggest amount of natural food.
While Grange CSL was effective catching many fish, including The Amphibian, (Annie), goodness knows how many times it could be improved, the addition of Robin Red increased its attraction.
At Taverham Mills, New Concepts Baits Mariner Mix was fed in such high quantity that it was difficult to get fish feeding over any other boilie.
I improved Trigga by the addition of a taste enhancer, a low level flavour, GLM Extract and Betaine HCl. The improved version caught more than the standard freezer or shelf life.
I believe Ken T also found it an improvement on the standard.
The Biollix, despite being touted by Nutrabaits as a roll and catch base mix, (which did work), could be improved by the addition of the two big liquid foods, Nutramino, Multimino PPc, cinnamon Essential oil and Peach Nutrafruit.
I watched fish moving upstream on the river to search it out, and they most definitely would take that in preference to other baits, including sweetcorn, which could be left.
If you can feed with a good boilie it can be the best food source available.
Enough of a good food source boilie can get the fish off naturals, although I would say it can be difficult to put enough in to do that on some waters.
That decent food source boilie can also have the fish taking that in preference to any other bait.
I have seen it happen on more than one occasion.
The original Grange CSL (it's full and proper name), named after the Essex Grange, was baited in so much quantity, that the carp in the lake would not take anything else, and the fish grew in weight on a water that did not have the biggest amount of natural food.
While Grange CSL was effective catching many fish, including The Amphibian, (Annie), goodness knows how many times it could be improved, the addition of Robin Red increased its attraction.
At Taverham Mills, New Concepts Baits Mariner Mix was fed in such high quantity that it was difficult to get fish feeding over any other boilie.
I improved Trigga by the addition of a taste enhancer, a low level flavour, GLM Extract and Betaine HCl. The improved version caught more than the standard freezer or shelf life.
I believe Ken T also found it an improvement on the standard.
The Biollix, despite being touted by Nutrabaits as a roll and catch base mix, (which did work), could be improved by the addition of the two big liquid foods, Nutramino, Multimino PPc, cinnamon Essential oil and Peach Nutrafruit.
I watched fish moving upstream on the river to search it out, and they most definitely would take that in preference to other baits, including sweetcorn, which could be left.