In reply to Post #130
Invariably there will be exceptions, but unless its a really favourable biomass there just isnt the natural food around to sustain such weights in most cases. yes you could say cassein for example has huge carp, but it also had a unique set of circumstances and that diet is supplement albeit not to the same extent, with anglers baits.
Ive often wondered if the density of community surrounding these places is key to growth rates, there is huge amount of human food waste going into them, when I visited family as a child they had a lovely big old country house type building on the river blavet in france and all veg scraps, meat, milk, bread etc that wasnt good for humans went in.
Im convinced some carp in uk urban canals are familier with the odd gingsters pasty and special brew
Invariably there will be exceptions, but unless its a really favourable biomass there just isnt the natural food around to sustain such weights in most cases. yes you could say cassein for example has huge carp, but it also had a unique set of circumstances and that diet is supplement albeit not to the same extent, with anglers baits.
Ive often wondered if the density of community surrounding these places is key to growth rates, there is huge amount of human food waste going into them, when I visited family as a child they had a lovely big old country house type building on the river blavet in france and all veg scraps, meat, milk, bread etc that wasnt good for humans went in.
Im convinced some carp in uk urban canals are familier with the odd gingsters pasty and special brew
In reply to Post #129
I think that you are right in that most waters are 'overstocked' and rely on anglers baits to survive, although I do know of a few waters where bait is 'tried' rather than relied on.
There are a few waters where fish growth is pretty much on natural food, a water producing a 50lb common was unfished for years, and some fish simply have never been caught over bait, or seen at anytime except spawning.
Then you have for example, Alton Water, 375acres(?) where bait can't be the main food source, yet VS stockies have gone from doubles to high 20's in a few years.
I think at times bait reliant fish may actually not achieve best weights due to regular repeat captures!
Years ago I heard on an average water the best stock level for all species was 800lb per acre. Obviously because of natural food stocks, better or worse, this can only be an average.
We are using attractors in baits, soluble solids, flavours, food liquids, not all are the same, to try to get carp to investigate, or feed on it.
I think that you are right in that most waters are 'overstocked' and rely on anglers baits to survive, although I do know of a few waters where bait is 'tried' rather than relied on.
There are a few waters where fish growth is pretty much on natural food, a water producing a 50lb common was unfished for years, and some fish simply have never been caught over bait, or seen at anytime except spawning.
Then you have for example, Alton Water, 375acres(?) where bait can't be the main food source, yet VS stockies have gone from doubles to high 20's in a few years.
I think at times bait reliant fish may actually not achieve best weights due to regular repeat captures!
Years ago I heard on an average water the best stock level for all species was 800lb per acre. Obviously because of natural food stocks, better or worse, this can only be an average.
We are using attractors in baits, soluble solids, flavours, food liquids, not all are the same, to try to get carp to investigate, or feed on it.
To my mind boilies have played a huge part in the increase in average weights across the country. Go back thirty years and a 40lb fish was a rare monster. Guys now have several in a season. Now granted some of that will be due to the selective breeding of the last decades, but instead of the country having a few 40s, there's literally thousands of them now. I don't think we would have seen such large gains as an average if we had all fished exclusively with particles for the last three decades.
Carp just love boilies. I was fortunate to be one of six anglers who were given permission to fish an untouched estate lake about ten years ago. Those fish had never seen an angler let alone a boilie. First year I think there was something like 90 fish caught by us. As far as I'm aware every one came to a boilie. I tried tigers for some time and couldn't buy a bite on them.
Carp just love boilies. I was fortunate to be one of six anglers who were given permission to fish an untouched estate lake about ten years ago. Those fish had never seen an angler let alone a boilie. First year I think there was something like 90 fish caught by us. As far as I'm aware every one came to a boilie. I tried tigers for some time and couldn't buy a bite on them.
In reply to Post #133
Also the amount used today is a different ball game ,
Also the amount used today is a different ball game ,
In reply to Post #134
People would definitely not be piling in these silly amount of boilies nowadays, if they had to roll them themselves, or on the bank.
An average 24 hours angling would be a 4, 6 or 12 egg mix maximum. LOL
Only When Premier fishmeals we're hammering everywhere, did heavy bait rolling really take off, 12, 18, 24 eggs per day were not uncommon.
People would definitely not be piling in these silly amount of boilies nowadays, if they had to roll them themselves, or on the bank.
An average 24 hours angling would be a 4, 6 or 12 egg mix maximum. LOL
Only When Premier fishmeals we're hammering everywhere, did heavy bait rolling really take off, 12, 18, 24 eggs per day were not uncommon.
Genetics, breeders, stocking policy, fishery management all have a huge part to play in the numbers of forty pound fish in the U.K. today. Arguably those factors are the most important part. When it comes to bait, it depends on the venue. Drop a few of the more recent Simmo fish into a naturally rich, hardly fished venue and most will grow to big sizes on neglect. The whole thing is driven by supply and demand, of course, as the game has gone through such astonishing changes during the last 25-30 odd years.
As for boilies picking off the big odd ‘uns... What was it the BM was first caught on again? All too easy to generalise... I stuck around 450kg of boilie into a venue with one or two of “that” type of fish, over a 14 month period - never caught ‘em, no-one did, and I had most of the rest, some multiple times. I'm of the view that when the really rare (or once/first time) ones are finally caught, there are a hell of a lot of factors that have to align, bait being just one of them. To attribute it purely to bait isn't really understanding why it happens. In fact, I'm not that sure we can understand why it happens. And some of them simply aren't ever caught, bait irrelevant, end of.
I can think of at least three fish alive today that grew huge on almost certainly zero bait. There are countless stories of these types of fish in many venues, over many years; seen, yet never caught, irrelevant of bait.
Some things we will never know with any level of certainty.
Dogma is the enemy of pragmatism. Step back, take the blinkers off, see the whole picture, glimpse the blurred edges...
As for boilies picking off the big odd ‘uns... What was it the BM was first caught on again? All too easy to generalise... I stuck around 450kg of boilie into a venue with one or two of “that” type of fish, over a 14 month period - never caught ‘em, no-one did, and I had most of the rest, some multiple times. I'm of the view that when the really rare (or once/first time) ones are finally caught, there are a hell of a lot of factors that have to align, bait being just one of them. To attribute it purely to bait isn't really understanding why it happens. In fact, I'm not that sure we can understand why it happens. And some of them simply aren't ever caught, bait irrelevant, end of.
I can think of at least three fish alive today that grew huge on almost certainly zero bait. There are countless stories of these types of fish in many venues, over many years; seen, yet never caught, irrelevant of bait.
Some things we will never know with any level of certainty.
Dogma is the enemy of pragmatism. Step back, take the blinkers off, see the whole picture, glimpse the blurred edges...
In reply to Post #135
Spot on.
Spot on.
In reply to Post #136
Lots of thought has gone out of carp fishing, quite often my jobs done before I've got there
Lots of thought has gone out of carp fishing, quite often my jobs done before I've got there
In reply to Post #138
Thought. Or lack of thinking, experimentally tying things.
Bit like the dying art of the home bait roller really. Rising ingredient costs, only the buzz of catching on your own bait and knowing exactly what is in it, and how fresh it is.
It is all done for you.
Ready rolled, proven carp catchers so easily available nowadays.,
Which is why I find this whole John Baker thing odd, unless of course companies are claiming to use the real JB flavour, and are instead using a cheap copy.
Thought. Or lack of thinking, experimentally tying things.
Bit like the dying art of the home bait roller really. Rising ingredient costs, only the buzz of catching on your own bait and knowing exactly what is in it, and how fresh it is.
It is all done for you.
Ready rolled, proven carp catchers so easily available nowadays.,
Which is why I find this whole John Baker thing odd, unless of course companies are claiming to use the real JB flavour, and are instead using a cheap copy.