In reply to Post #28
Why? This guy was injured cutting down branches off trees, which is a totally different ball game to doing odd jobs and general maintainance;- lopping bits off trees requires the right knowledge and equipment, even if you think you know what to do. I mean, you wouldn't expect him to do electrical work without the proper qualifications?
The owner of Bossard lake in France broke his back from falling out of a tree when a branch he cut from from a tree rolled back and knocked the ladder away and he'd been doing tree work for years.
Seems like the lake owner may have been taking advantage of the "arrangement" by getting him to do this job. Bottom lines are that one fella was seriously injured and the other may be going out of business. No winners here, IMO.
Why? This guy was injured cutting down branches off trees, which is a totally different ball game to doing odd jobs and general maintainance;- lopping bits off trees requires the right knowledge and equipment, even if you think you know what to do. I mean, you wouldn't expect him to do electrical work without the proper qualifications?
The owner of Bossard lake in France broke his back from falling out of a tree when a branch he cut from from a tree rolled back and knocked the ladder away and he'd been doing tree work for years.
Seems like the lake owner may have been taking advantage of the "arrangement" by getting him to do this job. Bottom lines are that one fella was seriously injured and the other may be going out of business. No winners here, IMO.
In reply to Post #31
Why?
the guy offered himself out as a handyman to pay for his ticket, he carried out maintenance on the complex if he wasn't happy with the job he shouldn't of carried out the task.
Apart from repairing paths and lopping reeds, clearing reeds i cant see much more he could offer.
Without a description of the tasks required, which I doubt there was it was just acting as a service for a free ticket which is only £500
Why?
the guy offered himself out as a handyman to pay for his ticket, he carried out maintenance on the complex if he wasn't happy with the job he shouldn't of carried out the task.
Apart from repairing paths and lopping reeds, clearing reeds i cant see much more he could offer.
Without a description of the tasks required, which I doubt there was it was just acting as a service for a free ticket which is only £500
In reply to Post #32
It must be fairly common knowledge that to use a chainsaw you should have had the relevant training. It's difficult to believe that both parties did not know this so in my view they are both at fault.
There are various qualifications depending on the complexity (and danger ) of what needs to be done which may not be so well known but a tree surgeon qualified to any standard would know this.
If he had possessed the relevant qualifications then he would have been taught that you only use a chainsaw on a ladder if you want a trip to A&E.
Even without the chainsaw qualification, it should be fairly obvious that if you cut a branch while stood on a ladder, that branch stands a good chance of taking your ladder out when it falls.
It must be fairly common knowledge that to use a chainsaw you should have had the relevant training. It's difficult to believe that both parties did not know this so in my view they are both at fault.
There are various qualifications depending on the complexity (and danger ) of what needs to be done which may not be so well known but a tree surgeon qualified to any standard would know this.
If he had possessed the relevant qualifications then he would have been taught that you only use a chainsaw on a ladder if you want a trip to A&E.
Even without the chainsaw qualification, it should be fairly obvious that if you cut a branch while stood on a ladder, that branch stands a good chance of taking your ladder out when it falls.
In reply to Post #33
It doesn't state anywhere in the article he was using a chainsaw, for all we know he had a wood saw.
I use a chainsaw (Mot regularly but still own one) and have had no relevant training, I've also never seen any training/course available.
It doesn't state anywhere in the article he was using a chainsaw, for all we know he had a wood saw.
I use a chainsaw (Mot regularly but still own one) and have had no relevant training, I've also never seen any training/course available.
In reply to Post #1
Both at fault in my opinion, Ricky just by the fact he's cutting a tree back off a ladder tells you he is no Arborist and should never of been up a ladder and the owner of the lake shouldn't of let him undertake that task in the first place, both looking at saving a bit of money both responsible for their own actions, in this instance the lake owner has been deemed the employer and Ricky the employee although I doubt there was a contract of employment signed.
Both at fault in my opinion, Ricky just by the fact he's cutting a tree back off a ladder tells you he is no Arborist and should never of been up a ladder and the owner of the lake shouldn't of let him undertake that task in the first place, both looking at saving a bit of money both responsible for their own actions, in this instance the lake owner has been deemed the employer and Ricky the employee although I doubt there was a contract of employment signed.
In reply to Post #34
Read the article again.
Read the article again.
In reply to Post #34
Ok I'll give you that one.
However the same working principles apply whatever saw you are using.
Silky hand saws are often used by tree surgeons for smaller branches but they still would have had training in their use for aerial tree pruning ( old CS40 course amongst others) and definitely would have known the dangers of working off a ladder whatever saw they use.
Re training courses. Obviously you live in a different area but there are two training centres within 7 miles of me and many more a little further away. Anyone interested would need to book as they normally run courses for groups but a “starter” course to CS30 standard wouldn't be too expensive.
Ok I'll give you that one.
However the same working principles apply whatever saw you are using.
Silky hand saws are often used by tree surgeons for smaller branches but they still would have had training in their use for aerial tree pruning ( old CS40 course amongst others) and definitely would have known the dangers of working off a ladder whatever saw they use.
Re training courses. Obviously you live in a different area but there are two training centres within 7 miles of me and many more a little further away. Anyone interested would need to book as they normally run courses for groups but a “starter” course to CS30 standard wouldn't be too expensive.
In reply to Post #35
On the contract point, there need be no contract because negligence and duty of care are torts (common law non-contractual obligations), while health and safety law is set in statute (law set by Parliament). They exist as overarching provisions in UK law, whether or not there is a contract. This is why waivers/disclaimers make no difference.
If we use this branch example in another way - if there was a public footpath around the lake and there was a rotten branch hanging above it, and that fell and injured a member of the public using the footpath, then the lake owner would still be in danger of being sued for negligence irrespective of there being no contractual/employer/employee relationship. It would be a foreseeable risk and so the lake owner would be negligent in not taking appropriate steps to mitigate. Their defence would likely rely on proving that they had taken appropriate steps to mitigate (which could be hard to prove without a detailed paper trail).
Also worth being aware that even if the injured party didn't decide to sue (nor their insurer) you could still be sued by the Heath and Safety Executive.
That said there probably would be a contract in the OP case as many clubs and syndicates include within their rules/T&Cs an obligation to attend X number of work parties a year - so this forms part of the contract (of sale) between the club/syndicate and member. But whether or not there is a contract would most likely be irrelevant given the above.
On the contract point, there need be no contract because negligence and duty of care are torts (common law non-contractual obligations), while health and safety law is set in statute (law set by Parliament). They exist as overarching provisions in UK law, whether or not there is a contract. This is why waivers/disclaimers make no difference.
If we use this branch example in another way - if there was a public footpath around the lake and there was a rotten branch hanging above it, and that fell and injured a member of the public using the footpath, then the lake owner would still be in danger of being sued for negligence irrespective of there being no contractual/employer/employee relationship. It would be a foreseeable risk and so the lake owner would be negligent in not taking appropriate steps to mitigate. Their defence would likely rely on proving that they had taken appropriate steps to mitigate (which could be hard to prove without a detailed paper trail).
Also worth being aware that even if the injured party didn't decide to sue (nor their insurer) you could still be sued by the Heath and Safety Executive.
That said there probably would be a contract in the OP case as many clubs and syndicates include within their rules/T&Cs an obligation to attend X number of work parties a year - so this forms part of the contract (of sale) between the club/syndicate and member. But whether or not there is a contract would most likely be irrelevant given the above.
I feel sorry for the lake owner, as normal people we simply dont go through life looking at things like a lawyer does. Lets be honest most of us in day to day like dont even consider that we might have an accident.
The one thing I cant understand is that the injured guy simply didnt say no Im not experienced enough to be climbing trees so I will do some other work instead. For example if my club asked me to go out in a boat without a life jacket, or to carry 30kg bags of gravel round the lake without a wheelbarrow, common sense says that I wouldnt do it. If i got in trouble at school and I said to my mum "Dave told me to do it", straightaway she'd say "If Dave told you to jump off a cliff would you?".
The work parties on the lakes Im a member of have certainly become a lot more professional in the last few years. No one just picks up a chainsaw anymore and has a go. Or climbs trees etc.
The one thing I cant understand is that the injured guy simply didnt say no Im not experienced enough to be climbing trees so I will do some other work instead. For example if my club asked me to go out in a boat without a life jacket, or to carry 30kg bags of gravel round the lake without a wheelbarrow, common sense says that I wouldnt do it. If i got in trouble at school and I said to my mum "Dave told me to do it", straightaway she'd say "If Dave told you to jump off a cliff would you?".
The work parties on the lakes Im a member of have certainly become a lot more professional in the last few years. No one just picks up a chainsaw anymore and has a go. Or climbs trees etc.
Sounds like the guy got rewarded for being a useless moron to me.
In reply to Post #39
Yeah, the law is an ass as they say - you never want to get caught up in it. The clash of what law demands vs the way most of us bumble about in reality can be pretty brutal.
Forever seeing videos from Nash, etc, advising people to climb up trees to look for where the carp are - does just make me think noooooooooooo!! Tho maybe Nash don't realise they would be in just as much danger of being sued as a lake owner if someone gets injured following their advice by climbing up a tree.
Yeah, the law is an ass as they say - you never want to get caught up in it. The clash of what law demands vs the way most of us bumble about in reality can be pretty brutal.
Forever seeing videos from Nash, etc, advising people to climb up trees to look for where the carp are - does just make me think noooooooooooo!! Tho maybe Nash don't realise they would be in just as much danger of being sued as a lake owner if someone gets injured following their advice by climbing up a tree.
In reply to Post #41
To be fair they probably should have been sued by now for some of the awful tat they've sold in the last few years. Crimes against carp fishing.
“Mr Nash you stand accused of selling some god awful tat in the last few years including tea light heaters and Bankside walkways. How does your client plead?”
“No contest your honour “
To be fair they probably should have been sued by now for some of the awful tat they've sold in the last few years. Crimes against carp fishing.
“Mr Nash you stand accused of selling some god awful tat in the last few years including tea light heaters and Bankside walkways. How does your client plead?”
“No contest your honour “
There are many Laws on the Statute Books but the one that often upsets the apple cart is one that isn't on the books. It's the Law of Unintended Consequences or if you prefer Sod's Law.
There are very few isolated incidents, most are a combination of events or circumstances coming together to cause a problem.
In this case it is an owner who is a bit tight fisted and wanted to save a few quid coming into contact with a ‘mate' who was a certifiable idiot therefore the outcome was settled, first in the accident and secondly in the court of law.
There are very few isolated incidents, most are a combination of events or circumstances coming together to cause a problem.
In this case it is an owner who is a bit tight fisted and wanted to save a few quid coming into contact with a ‘mate' who was a certifiable idiot therefore the outcome was settled, first in the accident and secondly in the court of law.
A work party conversation I've had a few times...
Bloke in charge of work party: Have you ever/do you know how to use a chainsaw?
Me: No.
Bloke in charge of work party: Okay, no worries, go and do xyz instead.
Quite simple really.
Bloke in charge of work party: Have you ever/do you know how to use a chainsaw?
Me: No.
Bloke in charge of work party: Okay, no worries, go and do xyz instead.
Quite simple really.
In reply to Post #39
I wish I'd known this sooner...
And if you see Dave, tell the **** I'm looking for him
I wish I'd known this sooner...
And if you see Dave, tell the **** I'm looking for him