In reply to Post #16
Cheers mate. That's a very helpful summary
Cheers mate. That's a very helpful summary
In reply to Post #16
Surely trace copper is one thing, but the poultry diet has a way higher level iirc? It's added into their diet for some reason? Like I said on the other thread I couldn't be sure but remember reading something about it before. And a quick look on Google shows lots of articles saying copper is harmful to carp ?
Surely trace copper is one thing, but the poultry diet has a way higher level iirc? It's added into their diet for some reason? Like I said on the other thread I couldn't be sure but remember reading something about it before. And a quick look on Google shows lots of articles saying copper is harmful to carp ?
In reply to Post #16
Well researched Smurf
Well researched Smurf
In reply to Post #18
I haven't seen what the levels are in the other feed, can the OP give the actual figures off the sack?
I just looked up 'is copper dangerous to carp' and yes lots of stuff comes up but as an example the first article is talking 0.25mg of copper (or copper products) per litre of water. That is a huge amount and obviously a bait with (as an example) a massive 50mg per kg of bait is never going to reach a water level anything like that. You would literally need to be walking across the lake on boilies to get close to that level
Many of the 'upper market' Koi foods have added copper. Here is one http://www.lagunakoi.com/Nijikawa-Koi-Food/Nijikawa-Growth-Koi-Food-p-759.html
I haven't seen what the levels are in the other feed, can the OP give the actual figures off the sack?
I just looked up 'is copper dangerous to carp' and yes lots of stuff comes up but as an example the first article is talking 0.25mg of copper (or copper products) per litre of water. That is a huge amount and obviously a bait with (as an example) a massive 50mg per kg of bait is never going to reach a water level anything like that. You would literally need to be walking across the lake on boilies to get close to that level
Many of the 'upper market' Koi foods have added copper. Here is one http://www.lagunakoi.com/Nijikawa-Koi-Food/Nijikawa-Growth-Koi-Food-p-759.html
In reply to Post #20
Yeah I don't doubt that the levels being spoken of wouldn't be achieved in a normal situation. I wonder if it's any different if ingested? Imo it's better to just avoid it to save anything untoward happening, especially as the op is a newbie so possibly unaware of some dangers associated with bait
Yeah I don't doubt that the levels being spoken of wouldn't be achieved in a normal situation. I wonder if it's any different if ingested? Imo it's better to just avoid it to save anything untoward happening, especially as the op is a newbie so possibly unaware of some dangers associated with bait
In reply to Post #21
You're right. Its not just the carp but molluscs and other waterlife that needs to be thought of. Better to be cautious as it will only take one person to use something that works really well to catch on, loads of people jump on it then find its loaded with something not too good.
5mg per K seems to be the very upper limit in koi feeds
You're right. Its not just the carp but molluscs and other waterlife that needs to be thought of. Better to be cautious as it will only take one person to use something that works really well to catch on, loads of people jump on it then find its loaded with something not too good.
5mg per K seems to be the very upper limit in koi feeds
In reply to Post #21
In a fish what is in the water will end up ingested anyway.
Not saying we shouldn't seek to educate 'newbies' (I hate that term, we all have to start some day) and ourselves alike but I bet many baits we use contain a good dollop of copper but they are not normally written on the packet for us to see and worry about. As an example bread is 1-7mg/kg copper but I have never seen that on the packet so never thought about it until just now.
In a fish what is in the water will end up ingested anyway.
Not saying we shouldn't seek to educate 'newbies' (I hate that term, we all have to start some day) and ourselves alike but I bet many baits we use contain a good dollop of copper but they are not normally written on the packet for us to see and worry about. As an example bread is 1-7mg/kg copper but I have never seen that on the packet so never thought about it until just now.
All comes down to concentrations. Arsenic is a key nutrient but you don't want too much of it do you.
Copper sulphate ecotoxicity - Very toxic to aquatic organisms, may cause long-term adverse effects in the aquatic environment. Do not allow material to contaminate ground water system.
LC50 (kill 50% of the fish) concentration is 0.1ppm in water.
Almost impossible to translate this to the concentration in the food.
But mammals are less susceptible than fish so if in doubt .......
Copper sulphate ecotoxicity - Very toxic to aquatic organisms, may cause long-term adverse effects in the aquatic environment. Do not allow material to contaminate ground water system.
LC50 (kill 50% of the fish) concentration is 0.1ppm in water.
Almost impossible to translate this to the concentration in the food.
But mammals are less susceptible than fish so if in doubt .......
In reply to Post #24
Exactly, better to be safe than sorry
Exactly, better to be safe than sorry
In reply to Post #25
So what bait is safe? I don't disagree with 'better safe than sorry'. The OP has asked that question for exactly this reason.
If the OP comes back and says the alternative feed he has is (random number) 10mg/kg copper that is safe for fish. A few minutes on google will find commercial feeds at twice this level.
The OP has asked a sensible question and is getting some advice based on a few simple facts that low level copper is OK. Maybe for you this is still to risky but that is your choice.
Honestly I suspect some bait we all use is higher than this but as we don't have the number on the packet we fish in ignorance. If we didn't try new things we would all still be fishing with boiled spuds
So what bait is safe? I don't disagree with 'better safe than sorry'. The OP has asked that question for exactly this reason.
If the OP comes back and says the alternative feed he has is (random number) 10mg/kg copper that is safe for fish. A few minutes on google will find commercial feeds at twice this level.
The OP has asked a sensible question and is getting some advice based on a few simple facts that low level copper is OK. Maybe for you this is still to risky but that is your choice.
Honestly I suspect some bait we all use is higher than this but as we don't have the number on the packet we fish in ignorance. If we didn't try new things we would all still be fishing with boiled spuds
In reply to Post #26
We would, but also if we didnt show at least some caution we could have a disaster on our hands by trying new stuff without a little research first (Peanuts spring to mind) . It's the same with humans ,too much of anything is bad, but a little of some thing's is equally just as bad. I just feel quoting things like "that old chestnut" and then shooting it down is asking for trouble when actually it's not quite so clear as you originally made out with levels etc. As for the op,yes he asked a good and sensible question, but one which he wouldn't have known to ask if I'd not mentioned copper in the first place,so therefore my (rightly or wrongly?)made point was worth making, even if only to get it talked about to prevent anything untoward happening. I'm all for trying new things, but it should be done as safely as possible and I'd guess using stuff with added copper as poultry feed has wouldn't be a great idea imo
We would, but also if we didnt show at least some caution we could have a disaster on our hands by trying new stuff without a little research first (Peanuts spring to mind) . It's the same with humans ,too much of anything is bad, but a little of some thing's is equally just as bad. I just feel quoting things like "that old chestnut" and then shooting it down is asking for trouble when actually it's not quite so clear as you originally made out with levels etc. As for the op,yes he asked a good and sensible question, but one which he wouldn't have known to ask if I'd not mentioned copper in the first place,so therefore my (rightly or wrongly?)made point was worth making, even if only to get it talked about to prevent anything untoward happening. I'm all for trying new things, but it should be done as safely as possible and I'd guess using stuff with added copper as poultry feed has wouldn't be a great idea imo
In reply to Post #27
I think I'm going to stick to vitalin just because it's easy to ball up. I'm not sure if the CSJ one would be as it's probably kibble. Vitalin is 5 mg/kg.
I think I'm going to stick to vitalin just because it's easy to ball up. I'm not sure if the CSJ one would be as it's probably kibble. Vitalin is 5 mg/kg.
In reply to Post #27
'that old chestnut' comment was because copper comes up often in the same way on here and other groups but the same process can be applied to several minerals or metals i.e. zinc. Why does know one ever ask 'what level of zinc is safe'
I still would like to know the copper level the OP is talking about more out of curiosity as to what some feeds contain than anything else
I don't use Vitalin but assume its the original which has 25mg/kg of added copper in the form of Copper Sulphate https://www.vitalinpetfood.co.uk/store/item/original
Copdock Mill layer pellets (as an example) has 18mg/kg the source of which is not listed. https://www.copdockmill.co.uk/our-brands/poultry
They are all VERY low and I can't see how any could be a problem in the amount of bait even a heavy user would put in.
'that old chestnut' comment was because copper comes up often in the same way on here and other groups but the same process can be applied to several minerals or metals i.e. zinc. Why does know one ever ask 'what level of zinc is safe'
I still would like to know the copper level the OP is talking about more out of curiosity as to what some feeds contain than anything else
I don't use Vitalin but assume its the original which has 25mg/kg of added copper in the form of Copper Sulphate https://www.vitalinpetfood.co.uk/store/item/original
Copdock Mill layer pellets (as an example) has 18mg/kg the source of which is not listed. https://www.copdockmill.co.uk/our-brands/poultry
They are all VERY low and I can't see how any could be a problem in the amount of bait even a heavy user would put in.
In reply to Post #29
I was looking at dog food on a site called all about dog food which gives each dog food a nurtional rating and lists the ingredients and composition of each dog food. I think I may of quoted the vitalin active instead of the original.
I was looking at dog food on a site called all about dog food which gives each dog food a nurtional rating and lists the ingredients and composition of each dog food. I think I may of quoted the vitalin active instead of the original.
I like how everyone calls me the “OP”. It sounds like we're from Line of duty