I've been looking more and more at flavours, especially water solubility of compounds within those flavours. So many of those compounds like amyl acetate in pineapple type flavours are insoluble in water amongst many many others unless they are mixed with glycerol which does make some of them partially soluble. With that in mind do you lads think flavours are more to aid gustatory reaction rather than olfactory?
In reply to Post #1
Now that's something that I haven't ever considered. A quick search reveals that garlic and onion have water soluble compounds and that butyric acid is at least miscible with water., so that's a start. It also begs the question whether carp can actually taste the non soluble ones or even smell be them. Maybe have a season fishing pineapple flavour versus just unflavoured glycerol and let us know how you get on 😁
Now that's something that I haven't ever considered. A quick search reveals that garlic and onion have water soluble compounds and that butyric acid is at least miscible with water., so that's a start. It also begs the question whether carp can actually taste the non soluble ones or even smell be them. Maybe have a season fishing pineapple flavour versus just unflavoured glycerol and let us know how you get on 😁
In reply to Post #2
I actually think plain glycerol is a winner but then again I did really well fishing baits soaked in amyl acetate which would suggest they could detect it but maybe a different receptor?
Edit, I should have said that I currently use no liquid at all , just the basemix and let that do the taking in terms of olfactory response
I actually think plain glycerol is a winner but then again I did really well fishing baits soaked in amyl acetate which would suggest they could detect it but maybe a different receptor?
Edit, I should have said that I currently use no liquid at all , just the basemix and let that do the taking in terms of olfactory response
In reply to Post #3
Could it possibly be that certain alcohols, esters etc allow other bases to be partially soluble, say like the mayonnaise effect with the eggs? The synergistic effect is quite remarkable between some components. I think at times we need to look past what the science says and look at our photo albums to be the definitive answer to what and what does not work, rather than stressing why or how that actually works when its not supposed to just because science says different. Lets face it, how many of these papers have been based around real time fishing on the bank results?
We often stumble, rather by luck than calculated judgement, upon some fantastic combinations through tinkering around. These chaps that try this and that, chopping and changing until they strike gold, i absolutely tip my hat to. The fruits of their labor culminating in something that turns on those receptors and just works. These hard earnt edges are like gold dust and should, in my honest humble opinion, be kept quiet.
Glycerin, is an amazing substance with many positive attributes,just look at its reaction with water and it really is a no brainer. Also its structure, being sweet, cheap and with so many applications in my opinion at least, is a sure fire winner. As for Amyl Acetate, thats a whole different ball game and a forgotten old school edge for most..
Could it possibly be that certain alcohols, esters etc allow other bases to be partially soluble, say like the mayonnaise effect with the eggs? The synergistic effect is quite remarkable between some components. I think at times we need to look past what the science says and look at our photo albums to be the definitive answer to what and what does not work, rather than stressing why or how that actually works when its not supposed to just because science says different. Lets face it, how many of these papers have been based around real time fishing on the bank results?
We often stumble, rather by luck than calculated judgement, upon some fantastic combinations through tinkering around. These chaps that try this and that, chopping and changing until they strike gold, i absolutely tip my hat to. The fruits of their labor culminating in something that turns on those receptors and just works. These hard earnt edges are like gold dust and should, in my honest humble opinion, be kept quiet.
Glycerin, is an amazing substance with many positive attributes,just look at its reaction with water and it really is a no brainer. Also its structure, being sweet, cheap and with so many applications in my opinion at least, is a sure fire winner. As for Amyl Acetate, thats a whole different ball game and a forgotten old school edge for most..
I've never worried much about solubility in attraction. Not all amino acids are soluble including some I would say are the most stimulating.
And there are some oil based flavours that are amongst my most successful.
No way of proving this but molecule size might be a factor. The esters, acids, and goodness knows what else in a flavour all can add (or subtract) from a flavours effectiveness.
What I am convinced of is it is not the carrier base per se that provides the attraction otherwise all flavours with the same base would be the same. How the base reacts with the other constituents is another matter.
And there are some oil based flavours that are amongst my most successful.
No way of proving this but molecule size might be a factor. The esters, acids, and goodness knows what else in a flavour all can add (or subtract) from a flavours effectiveness.
What I am convinced of is it is not the carrier base per se that provides the attraction otherwise all flavours with the same base would be the same. How the base reacts with the other constituents is another matter.
In reply to Post #1
>With that in mind do you lads think flavours are more to aid gustatory reaction rather than olfactory?
I think a good flavour blend, regardless of it all coming in one bottle pre-blended from a supplier or a blend you make at home yourself from several bottles, is both initial olfactroy attraction followed by a positive gustatory effect once they mouth it i.e. its tastes good!
One sense without the other is at best a week bait and at worse possibly repellent.
I think we all know now that many cheap 'flavours' are just a smell to catch the angler. But we also know that some 'flavours' are very much a mix of compounds that carp both like the smell and taste of. The fact that some of these blends smell like something we are family with such as Plum is really immaterial to me and again is largely to make them smell 'nice' to the angler.
>With that in mind do you lads think flavours are more to aid gustatory reaction rather than olfactory?
I think a good flavour blend, regardless of it all coming in one bottle pre-blended from a supplier or a blend you make at home yourself from several bottles, is both initial olfactroy attraction followed by a positive gustatory effect once they mouth it i.e. its tastes good!
One sense without the other is at best a week bait and at worse possibly repellent.
I think we all know now that many cheap 'flavours' are just a smell to catch the angler. But we also know that some 'flavours' are very much a mix of compounds that carp both like the smell and taste of. The fact that some of these blends smell like something we are family with such as Plum is really immaterial to me and again is largely to make them smell 'nice' to the angler.
Wow, fantastic comments lads and I appreciate it. So if we say that although some elements aren't soluble as they are but can become partially soluble on a solvent base then this is enough reason to at least try it and let the fish decide , in the real world.perhaps this is a bit like oils being insoluble yet obviously attractive to carp until you realise that, like a flavour, oils are indeed soluble even if only partially. So if I was to make my own concoction to achieve the desired flavour effect then don't worry about solubility as such. Obviously I don't know as much as some here but i have investigated the reaction between amino acids, sugars and heat and the outcome that is very very similar to the solubles emitted from a certain brilliant bait.
More questions than answers is the way forward
More questions than answers is the way forward
no one here has yet considered that flavours dont have to be a liquid. Some of the best ones ive used have been powdered palatants, i reckon they must rely more on taste than smell, because the molecule size must considerably greater in powdered form as opposed to dissolved in a carrier base. For winter im going to be combining three banana flavours in my nut bait, a powdered banana, a banana on a std base and a banana on an EA alcohol base. My thoughts are that in cold water temps the EA should disperse easier, the PG base at a different rate and the the powdered flavour is there for when they hopefully start to eat it.
In reply to Post #8
Very good point and every ingredient we use will have a smell and taste of its own.
I do like to mix my flavour sources up a bit like you, one current bait has vanilla bean (powder), cream EA and PG based plum. As the bait breaks down the flavour changes with time and the time to change is different as the temperature changes.
Very good point and every ingredient we use will have a smell and taste of its own.
I do like to mix my flavour sources up a bit like you, one current bait has vanilla bean (powder), cream EA and PG based plum. As the bait breaks down the flavour changes with time and the time to change is different as the temperature changes.
In reply to Post #8
One, if not the best, springtime hookbaits I ever made was on similar lines. The now-defunct Mainline Pineapple Juice, Hutchy protaste, but with 10% of the basemix made up of pure organic pineapple powder. Devastating as a single.
One, if not the best, springtime hookbaits I ever made was on similar lines. The now-defunct Mainline Pineapple Juice, Hutchy protaste, but with 10% of the basemix made up of pure organic pineapple powder. Devastating as a single.
In reply to Post #8
A few years ago, I'd run out of my usual plain WPC 80. I popped into Home Bargains and got some of the body building whey protein which has a powdered vanilla flavour as well as a sweetener and lecithin. I used it with PG Scopex and a slightly reduced amount of my usual vanilla ice cream flavour and it's been fantastic. Problem now is that they've started to include soya protein which is going to reduce it's gelling ability. I've also just got some strawberry hydro whey powder from Lidl to experiment with. I love a high street bait shopping trip !
Edit : Also just discovered than vanillin is another water soluble compound !
A few years ago, I'd run out of my usual plain WPC 80. I popped into Home Bargains and got some of the body building whey protein which has a powdered vanilla flavour as well as a sweetener and lecithin. I used it with PG Scopex and a slightly reduced amount of my usual vanilla ice cream flavour and it's been fantastic. Problem now is that they've started to include soya protein which is going to reduce it's gelling ability. I've also just got some strawberry hydro whey powder from Lidl to experiment with. I love a high street bait shopping trip !
Edit : Also just discovered than vanillin is another water soluble compound !
In reply to Post #11
I really rate vanillin in baits. First it can be used to complement so many other ingredients and make them more palatable. Used a lot in animal feed for this reason alone.....also used in many foods for humans again for this reason.
I have three boilies I make at the moment and all three have a vanilla product in them even though one is fruity, one fishy and the other nutty/creamy. It simply improves all off them in my fishing and if I leave it out on any of them the difference is clear
I really rate vanillin in baits. First it can be used to complement so many other ingredients and make them more palatable. Used a lot in animal feed for this reason alone.....also used in many foods for humans again for this reason.
I have three boilies I make at the moment and all three have a vanilla product in them even though one is fruity, one fishy and the other nutty/creamy. It simply improves all off them in my fishing and if I leave it out on any of them the difference is clear
In reply to Post #12
I do the same with Lamlac for this exact reason. It's in my fishmeal, nut and milk baits. I'm not a carp but I reckon there's something to the creamy taste.
I do the same with Lamlac for this exact reason. It's in my fishmeal, nut and milk baits. I'm not a carp but I reckon there's something to the creamy taste.
In reply to Post #11
Interesting
What brand did you use? I've often how effective they would be but the strawberry / chocolate flavours put me off. I guess the vanilla one is pretty universal.
Has anyone used the Huel meal replacement powder? I seen Jason Rider mention that a few times when talking about bait ingredients
Interesting
What brand did you use? I've often how effective they would be but the strawberry / chocolate flavours put me off. I guess the vanilla one is pretty universal.
Has anyone used the Huel meal replacement powder? I seen Jason Rider mention that a few times when talking about bait ingredients
In reply to Post #14
It was XTone from Home Bargains. The old stuff was WPC 80 but now they've mixed in soya isolate and whey isolate which are definitely good nutritional ingredients but don't gel. I was only using it at around 3 % which was just enough for the baits to be firm enough for stick use. I'll just go back to plain WPC 80 with vanilla and scopex flavour added. Brilliant combination that is 👍
It was XTone from Home Bargains. The old stuff was WPC 80 but now they've mixed in soya isolate and whey isolate which are definitely good nutritional ingredients but don't gel. I was only using it at around 3 % which was just enough for the baits to be firm enough for stick use. I'll just go back to plain WPC 80 with vanilla and scopex flavour added. Brilliant combination that is 👍