Hello everyone. I have just watched a video on YouTube by Mathew Collins, which was about hook choice, rigs and some more very interesting ideas. I suggest you go check it out. Now some of the topics he raised in this was about mouth damage, along with the patterns of hook that can cause it. The two he mentioned were longshanks and also curved shank hooks. He stated how each in some situations can cause serious damage to fishes mouths when in the net and also being carried out of the water in a sling. I personally have never had any issues with these patterns but I'm interested to know about other people's opinions on mouth damage, these hook patterns and how we can change our rigs to stop this. I do recommend watching the video on YouTube for more context on this and also some good things to take away from it in regards to materials, gape and barbs/barbless. Thanks and would love to hear any opinions on the subject.
In reply to Post #1
Both of those varieties are banned on my water.
Both of those varieties are banned on my water.
In reply to Post #1
I've used both standard longshanks and curve shanks extensively for years and never had any issues with mouth damage.
I've used both standard longshanks and curve shanks extensively for years and never had any issues with mouth damage.
Personally I believe the damage is done by the angler not the hook pattern and a few other reasons other than just the hook, the type of hooklink materials used some are like razor wire, removal of the hook, playing of the fish when weeded padded up, snaggy hit and hold situations playing the fish too hard, then you get into the barbed v barbless argument.
Overgunned rods play a huge part in mouth damage , clutch not being set correctly or used ,at all , the main problem anglers jumping straight into carp fishing without learning the basics from a young age.
In reply to Post #5
what he said!
what he said!
In reply to Post #5
probably a lot of truth in that Jeff. Not sure what the answer it either - we cant stop people starting fishing......................or can we.......
probably a lot of truth in that Jeff. Not sure what the answer it either - we cant stop people starting fishing......................or can we.......
In reply to Post #5
Spot on.......
Spot on.......
In reply to Post #7
I believe damage caused by barbed hooks is mainly by poor unhooking ie people not using forceps when required and ripping their hooks out also not using cutters on the rare occasion they are needed.They dont want to have to throw the rig away.
I believe damage caused by barbed hooks is mainly by poor unhooking ie people not using forceps when required and ripping their hooks out also not using cutters on the rare occasion they are needed.They dont want to have to throw the rig away.
In reply to Post #9
That doesn't explain the sides of the mouth being ripped tho.
Thin Mono / Braid hoolinks, newly stocked fish that have been brought up on pellet, people not being able to play fish properly, fish getting caught too often.
That doesn't explain the sides of the mouth being ripped tho.
Thin Mono / Braid hoolinks, newly stocked fish that have been brought up on pellet, people not being able to play fish properly, fish getting caught too often.
In reply to Post #9
Why I personally like to use barbless hooks, and occasionally micro barbed. The hook holds with barbless I've found have been absolutely brilliant, the hook cleanly in the fishes mouth, and also so easy to unhook. Furthermore I have had no more hook pulls than I would get with barbed, which is the main argument with barbed or barbless hooks. So puts down the myths about barbless for me, I'm going to use them for the foreseeable future.
Why I personally like to use barbless hooks, and occasionally micro barbed. The hook holds with barbless I've found have been absolutely brilliant, the hook cleanly in the fishes mouth, and also so easy to unhook. Furthermore I have had no more hook pulls than I would get with barbed, which is the main argument with barbed or barbless hooks. So puts down the myths about barbless for me, I'm going to use them for the foreseeable future.
In reply to Post #4
I think that it might be down to both, a curved shanked hook is much like a bent hook and a longshank hook I have found to cause damage on a few rare occasions because the eye has dug into the flesh and that had been done during the fight when I was using a very soft rod, a barbel rod to be exact, so I think that hook patterns do cause mouth damage and some by poor angling from the part the fish is in the net to when it is on the mat and then transferred back to the water; however as previously mentioned thing such as a stiff rod and tight clutch can cause mouth damage.
I think that it might be down to both, a curved shanked hook is much like a bent hook and a longshank hook I have found to cause damage on a few rare occasions because the eye has dug into the flesh and that had been done during the fight when I was using a very soft rod, a barbel rod to be exact, so I think that hook patterns do cause mouth damage and some by poor angling from the part the fish is in the net to when it is on the mat and then transferred back to the water; however as previously mentioned thing such as a stiff rod and tight clutch can cause mouth damage.
Talking of mouth damage!
https://youtu.be/GsjFnuRTVmg
https://youtu.be/GsjFnuRTVmg
In reply to Post #8
Agree, striking into fish ffs
Heavy leads that plug into silt too, fished a couple of waters over the years and fish mouths have been horrendous
As for long shank hooks, not a fan myself and never have been, with shrink tube no excuses for me either. When a fish runs it runs away from you, for a me a long shank hook depending on placement can have a lever effect on the lip / mouth. Saying that I guess no hook is ideal
Agree, striking into fish ffs
Heavy leads that plug into silt too, fished a couple of waters over the years and fish mouths have been horrendous
As for long shank hooks, not a fan myself and never have been, with shrink tube no excuses for me either. When a fish runs it runs away from you, for a me a long shank hook depending on placement can have a lever effect on the lip / mouth. Saying that I guess no hook is ideal
In reply to Post #12
What do you mean by curved hooks? Curved shanks are nothing like a bent hook or longshanks?
What do you mean by curved hooks? Curved shanks are nothing like a bent hook or longshanks?
In reply to Post #15
Sorry should give more context. I didn't mean that curved shanks are like longshanks. What i meant was how when bent hooks came around they had a bend at the middle of the shank, and a curved shank hooks IMO are a form of the bent hook in a way, but a progressive curve/sweeping shank rather than a place on the hook where it is bent. This was also mentioned in the video by Mathew Collins on YouTube. Sorry if I caused confusion.
But I do think that curved shank hooks are better than a bent hook but they can cause some damage similar to a bent hook. Plus I know there are many mixed opinions so if you disagree with me that is fine, I may be wrong, but as I see it curved shank hooks can cause damage in certain situations, I'm not saying they cause damage on their own. Any hook will cause damage if caught in the net ect but I think it just has a more chance of causing damage plus through my own experience of using them and longshanks have influenced this, with an instance I have mentioned earlier the eye of a longshank digging into the flesh and causing damage (if small). This I can see happening with curved shanks and have seen on occasions, but this will only happen if the hook is embeded in the middle of the bottom lip, where the eye is positioned in a way that makes it prone to digging when played, especially if the angler playing the fish has to pull with a certain amount or is using a stiff rod.
Sorry should give more context. I didn't mean that curved shanks are like longshanks. What i meant was how when bent hooks came around they had a bend at the middle of the shank, and a curved shank hooks IMO are a form of the bent hook in a way, but a progressive curve/sweeping shank rather than a place on the hook where it is bent. This was also mentioned in the video by Mathew Collins on YouTube. Sorry if I caused confusion.
But I do think that curved shank hooks are better than a bent hook but they can cause some damage similar to a bent hook. Plus I know there are many mixed opinions so if you disagree with me that is fine, I may be wrong, but as I see it curved shank hooks can cause damage in certain situations, I'm not saying they cause damage on their own. Any hook will cause damage if caught in the net ect but I think it just has a more chance of causing damage plus through my own experience of using them and longshanks have influenced this, with an instance I have mentioned earlier the eye of a longshank digging into the flesh and causing damage (if small). This I can see happening with curved shanks and have seen on occasions, but this will only happen if the hook is embeded in the middle of the bottom lip, where the eye is positioned in a way that makes it prone to digging when played, especially if the angler playing the fish has to pull with a certain amount or is using a stiff rod.
In reply to Post #16
I very much disagree about curve shank hooks, I find them to give the most secure hook holds.
I'll add, a curve shank is not like a bent hook
I can't agree with over gunned rods pulling their lips off either as they simply won't apply the pressure
I very much disagree about curve shank hooks, I find them to give the most secure hook holds.
I'll add, a curve shank is not like a bent hook
I can't agree with over gunned rods pulling their lips off either as they simply won't apply the pressure
In reply to Post #17
In the wrong hands they will and invariably do.I have seen 3.5lb rods being used on canals , striking like a lunatic ,clutches tight and fish literally dragged in .
In the wrong hands they will and invariably do.I have seen 3.5lb rods being used on canals , striking like a lunatic ,clutches tight and fish literally dragged in .
In reply to Post #16
Totally disagree - curved shanks are nothing like a bent hook. Look at a mugga, then look at a bent hook. Nothing like each other. Bent hooks were originally a fly pattern (like a lot of carp hooks) - google aos dog nobbler hook.
When people talk about curved hook with regards to mouth damage, it's more in reference to the longshank curved hooks they originally used in rigs like the 360 rig.
Im not sure what you mean about the eye digging into the flesh, not very likely to happen, but if you believe it a problem it could happen with any in turned eye pattern.
Totally disagree - curved shanks are nothing like a bent hook. Look at a mugga, then look at a bent hook. Nothing like each other. Bent hooks were originally a fly pattern (like a lot of carp hooks) - google aos dog nobbler hook.
When people talk about curved hook with regards to mouth damage, it's more in reference to the longshank curved hooks they originally used in rigs like the 360 rig.
Im not sure what you mean about the eye digging into the flesh, not very likely to happen, but if you believe it a problem it could happen with any in turned eye pattern.
Hi All
Personally I don't disagree that certain hook shapes, certain barb styles and hooklinks may or may not cause mouth damage.
Almost all rigs these days are "self hooking", giving it the "Big strike" to an already hooked fish with a 3.5tc rod is where I think most of the problems occur.
We're all overgunned, the match boys, carpers and general anglers are using gear you could land tuna on.
John Wilson 2lb line long trotting with a centerpin and a couple of maggots under your tongue to warm them up for grayling on the trent to give them a chance, no mouth damage there....👍
Best
Jon
Personally I don't disagree that certain hook shapes, certain barb styles and hooklinks may or may not cause mouth damage.
Almost all rigs these days are "self hooking", giving it the "Big strike" to an already hooked fish with a 3.5tc rod is where I think most of the problems occur.
We're all overgunned, the match boys, carpers and general anglers are using gear you could land tuna on.
John Wilson 2lb line long trotting with a centerpin and a couple of maggots under your tongue to warm them up for grayling on the trent to give them a chance, no mouth damage there....👍
Best
Jon
In reply to Post #20
In reply to Post #18
That's a usual case of the tool holding the tool doing damage tho, what would happen if you put a centrepin and a 2lb multicarp in his hands?
That's a usual case of the tool holding the tool doing damage tho, what would happen if you put a centrepin and a 2lb multicarp in his hands?
In reply to Post #22
He would,nt know what to do with it.thats my point no watercraft no skill, companies pushing high t.c rods when they are not needed.
He would,nt know what to do with it.thats my point no watercraft no skill, companies pushing high t.c rods when they are not needed.
In reply to Post #1
There are lots of causes of mouth damage in carp, hook pattern being one of them, especially when the eye can catch in the net when a fish is landed and carried out of the water.
In my opinion other causes include being overgunned, not setting the clutch, lack of ability to play a fish properly, striking into fish that are already hooked, use of heavy leads that get plugged and leads that are more fixed than they should be, or even fully fixed! Thin diameter braided hooklink can cause awful damage, like cheesewire cutting thorugh the mouth. Far more important to ban them than any particular hook pattern IMO. There is also the age old debate about barbed and barbless hooks, many believe that barbed hooks move less in the carp's mouth and therefore cause less damage, on the reverse side of the coin is that barbed hooked are harder to remove, certainly by inexperienced anglers.
We can make as many rules as you like but the simple fact is that a lot of novice anglers fish for young carp in clay or silt bottomed lakes, these carp have much softer mouths than older, gravel pit living carp and once you've damaged a carp's mouth the damage has been done and it stays with that fish and often gets worse with further captures.
There are lots of causes of mouth damage in carp, hook pattern being one of them, especially when the eye can catch in the net when a fish is landed and carried out of the water.
In my opinion other causes include being overgunned, not setting the clutch, lack of ability to play a fish properly, striking into fish that are already hooked, use of heavy leads that get plugged and leads that are more fixed than they should be, or even fully fixed! Thin diameter braided hooklink can cause awful damage, like cheesewire cutting thorugh the mouth. Far more important to ban them than any particular hook pattern IMO. There is also the age old debate about barbed and barbless hooks, many believe that barbed hooks move less in the carp's mouth and therefore cause less damage, on the reverse side of the coin is that barbed hooked are harder to remove, certainly by inexperienced anglers.
We can make as many rules as you like but the simple fact is that a lot of novice anglers fish for young carp in clay or silt bottomed lakes, these carp have much softer mouths than older, gravel pit living carp and once you've damaged a carp's mouth the damage has been done and it stays with that fish and often gets worse with further captures.
In reply to Post #23
That setup is much more capable of causing damage tho, you could still be winding the reel under pressure you couldn't exert on a high tc rod and big pit reel without clamping the spool, holding the rod at the spigot and walking backwards.
That setup is much more capable of causing damage tho, you could still be winding the reel under pressure you couldn't exert on a high tc rod and big pit reel without clamping the spool, holding the rod at the spigot and walking backwards.
In reply to Post #25
Used to se e mouth damage “back in the day” when 2.75 test rods were classed as cod poles, and people were using bait runners and 10lb line. It's the tool holding the tool that's the problem....
Used to se e mouth damage “back in the day” when 2.75 test rods were classed as cod poles, and people were using bait runners and 10lb line. It's the tool holding the tool that's the problem....
Striking – don't even do it when Piking, just no need - just a gentle tightening up via a side sweep of the Rod to take up any slack line, modern hooks are so well made they don't need to be driven home so to speak as in the old days.
A Rod is basically like a “big Leaf spring” the higher the Tc the more force it exerts when put under pressure, all that force ends up at one spot – the hook hold. By using the Reels Clutch to release the force it's pretty much impossible to cause any damage or snap anything.
But that's the problem- if the person holding the Rod (regardless of its test curve) is clueless on how to use a clutch properly, snapped hooks, snapped hook links or at worst mouth damage, is enviable.
Me and a mate walked down the banking the other year and stood there in horror looking at an “Angler” about to net a 20+ Common using a 3lb Tc NG with the Rig Tubing touching the top eye the Rod was arched over so much!
F### knows what lb line he was using, but something had to give – bottom lip ripped clean off!!!!
Just to add – I'm constantly adjusting the Clutch when playing any fish regardless of size, my fingers acting as a brake on the spool.
Where does the habit come from – using Centre Pins, with them not having a built in Clutch you are the Clutch
A Rod is basically like a “big Leaf spring” the higher the Tc the more force it exerts when put under pressure, all that force ends up at one spot – the hook hold. By using the Reels Clutch to release the force it's pretty much impossible to cause any damage or snap anything.
But that's the problem- if the person holding the Rod (regardless of its test curve) is clueless on how to use a clutch properly, snapped hooks, snapped hook links or at worst mouth damage, is enviable.
Me and a mate walked down the banking the other year and stood there in horror looking at an “Angler” about to net a 20+ Common using a 3lb Tc NG with the Rig Tubing touching the top eye the Rod was arched over so much!
F### knows what lb line he was using, but something had to give – bottom lip ripped clean off!!!!
Just to add – I'm constantly adjusting the Clutch when playing any fish regardless of size, my fingers acting as a brake on the spool.
Where does the habit come from – using Centre Pins, with them not having a built in Clutch you are the Clutch
In reply to Post #27
Just to add – I'm constantly adjusting the Clutch when playing any fish regardless of size, my fingers acting as a brake on the spool.
No need to put heavy pressure on any fish unless its going somewhere you don't want it to, and then you could have encouraged it to go the other way with rod angle, simply play them out to the net
Seen some myself, full pressure all the time, crazy
Is it not the art of fishing, playing one out
Just to add – I'm constantly adjusting the Clutch when playing any fish regardless of size, my fingers acting as a brake on the spool.
No need to put heavy pressure on any fish unless its going somewhere you don't want it to, and then you could have encouraged it to go the other way with rod angle, simply play them out to the net
Seen some myself, full pressure all the time, crazy
Is it not the art of fishing, playing one out
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