|
|
|
|
In reply to Post #127
There’s a limit to that though to be fair, putting it out there I have no doubt over his bait credentials, but prices WILL increase from him soon there’s no two ways about it, of tge very few times I’ve spoken to him he seems to be brimming with integrity so he would be cutting anything but costs WILL be increasing. And rightly so.
Milks have gone up at least 50% and will continue to do so. As will egg products, fishmeal due for another increase, and this is all just this year, any bait formulated more than ten years ago will be at least 25% more expensive to produce now with the same ingredients.
And for the record and yes I’m bias anglers don’t realise we also need to make a living.
|
|
|
|
In reply to Post #122
But in all business ventures you have static costs and variable costs… rent, etc is the same every month regardless of how much product you sell, where as material costs are dependant on the amount you sell.
So if you sell 2000kg a week your rental costs are 2000 a week that’s a pound per kg….
Also electricity etc, granted more bait more machines etc running higher costs, but things like lighting etc will be the same costs every month. There lots of static monthly costs that work in the larger companies advantage…. They can also sell at a lower profit margin, cos the volume boosts there profits…
Stack it high and sell it as cheap as possible, we’ve all heard that before.
|
|
|
|
In reply to Post #127
Huge loyal customer base all over Europe, probably the most consistent bait maker ever and there bait has been catching fish rather than anglers for a very long time now.
|
|
|
|
In reply to Post #122
Like you said, you don’t really know what they are doing so who knows. Clearly selling enough to be able to keep prices down for customers and make enough to be comfortable. Same can’t be said of a majority of other firms. Whatever they are doing is working.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
In reply to Post #124
I was complementing your relationship?!
|
|
|
|
In reply to Post #123
Ah the trolls back 😂 I pay delivery like everyone else 😉
|
|
|
|
In reply to Post #122
They must really like you if they are selling you less and using 4 times as much diesel delivering it to you.
|
|
|
|
In reply to Post #121
Essential aren’t selling metric tonnes a day so aren’t buying tens of tones of each ingredient. There isn’t a lot of movement ton items from sack to tone price less than a tenner a bag on high spec milks but I’m fortunate to get the tonne price on a lot. Pretty much because I buy as much but physically cannot store it, most people get month deliveries from suppliers I get one to two a week. But of say, 750kg of ingredient as opposed to 5 tonne. Some people like me lol
|
|
|
|
In reply to Post #118
more bait you sell the easier it is to lower price points and still retain profit. If someone has to make a living off selling 20kg a week they need to sell at a higher price than someone making a living from selling 200kg a week.
|
|
|
|
In reply to Post #119
Some suppliers don’t.
|
|
|
|
In reply to Post #118
There are no level playing feilds in business, suppliers tell lies. Not as bad as it used to. Once had a trade account with Travis but never used it as most materials could be bought from wicks who are owned by Travis for a quarter of the price.
|
|
|
|
In reply to Post #117
We buy from the same suppliers for a lot of bulk ingredients, I’m not sure what he’s making a day but essential aren’t considered a very large company compared to some, there won’t be a lot of cost different in ingredient as I get time prices on the sack because some people like me 😂
|
|
| | | Frenzy | | Posts: 11403 |  | | [ MODERATOR ] | |
|
In reply to Post #115
Volume
|
|
|
|
In reply to Post #115
Don't think he supplies any shops now, think he has a huge very loyal customer base. When I used b5 a guy I met was buying it from a shop at trade plus 10% Mark up for shop but was buying a few hundred kg at a time shared between friends. I'm not using it now but I know he still buys large quantities direct.
|
|
|
|
In reply to Post #113
I have no idea whats in his bait or how he keeps his prices down, we buy from some of the same suppliers
|
|
|
|
In reply to Post #110
When I first started a few local shops bought it from me for 6.50 a kilo on the basis of guaranteed monthly orders, and we're selling it at anywhere from 11.99 to 14 pounds.
I couldnt sell it for that price anymore as it costs more to produce, so if they bought it at say 8 quid I have no idea what they'd market it at, 15?
I dont set an RRP as its small independant tackle shops and they will charge what they see fit.
some of the cheaper options in shops I hate to imagine how little it costs to produce, as the shop wants 100% mark up on average.
I do sell a bait at the moment to a tackle shop, its their recipe, but they sell it to about break even, I think its a sentimental thing for the owner quite an old bait.
|
|
|
|
In reply to Post #112
A great bait will always be a great bait, how long has essential been going and I think their b5 is still the biggest seller, think they have only done four or five baits.
|
|
|
|
In reply to Post #107
Yes mate, unless its outsourced.
I have two baits, but then there is matching liquids, stick mix, pop ups, wafters, bottom baits, paste, with the hookbaits being in multiple sizes, as well as the feed.
it works out all in with the two baits, and the sizes avaliable, that there is 28 items to those two boilies ranges.
Its trying to predict whats popular thats tricky, as tastes change, last April I did about 300 pots of the fishmeal wafters in 15mm, and about half that of 18mm and dumbell, this year roughly the same number of pots but around a 50-50 split of 18 and 15mm, with only 20 pots of dumbell ones sold !
You can't just make loads to stay covered as ingredients are hard to source in some cases currently, and this can bite you badly.
|
|
|
|
In reply to Post #109
I don't see much new in carp fishing , but I know little about bait, but through observations if I get my baiting strategy right I'm in with a chance , be that 30 years ago or now , a carps a carp just some bastads are harder to catch sometimes, we have educated them well,
|
|
|
|
In reply to Post #106
How much would your bait sell for in a tackle shop?
Can’t compare direct supply with the convenience of a kilo or so from a tackle shop… especially without the middle man
Agree with the sentiment tho
|
|
|
|
In reply to Post #107
Nowt as fickle as carp anglers, lost count of the times I've seen anglers change bait for no reason but we know that a blank is always the baits fault even if we had a result on it last time out.
|
|
|
|
In reply to Post #107
Not just for marketing... To make a cheaper one as well.
|
|
|
|
In reply to Post #106
Am I right in thinking in an ideal world a bait company would only do a few baits ,easier I would think .
But has to put a new one out now and then more for marketing than a real step forward in bait progresion, thanks.
|
|
|
|
In reply to Post #104
When I started my base cost 4.77 to make, and the cheapest I sold was 7.50, after energy and labour and utilities, eggs, hydros, bags etc my margin was very low, that "officially" started in 2014, its now 2022 and my bait at its cheapest is 8.00 / 8.50 but the margin is less, to maintain the margin it should be 9 + but people gawk, its why I get a bit despondent at some of the crap out there going for 12 quid a kilo by people who don't even understand how to make a reasonable bait.
Im fortunate that I can buy multiple sacks of one ingredient at its tonne price as well, so its not like buying in twenty tonnes of different ingredients at a time is going to make much of a difference in the future, its really been increasing capacity and trying to stream line processes, take advantage of offers etc ( I usually buy bags by the thousand but got ten thousand as it was cheaper to do so on an offer ), small things like that add up and help.
I don't want to put prices up because its meant to be a a working class hobby, and peoples wages certainly havent gone up with cost that much.
Literally the only option I see open to me is doing what I already do, making hay whilst the sun shines and in quieter spells doing jobs on the side.
|
|
|
|
In reply to Post #96
My club does not allow prebaiting, not that I get to go often enough to make it worthwhile. I just try to find some fish and get as close to them as available swims will allow. Unless I am doing a long session and I know a weather change is coming and likely to push the fish into a certain area. So I guess a bait with slightly higher attraction would suit me better?
|
|
|
|
In reply to Post #103
Raw materials for virtually everything are going up, add that to the rise in energy costs and an increase in price is inevitable. Personally I hope companies don't cut quality to maintain prices. It can take years to gain a reputation for quality but it doesn't take long to loose it.
|
|
|
|
In reply to Post #91
Plus you can’t charge according because people know very little and think you’re ripping them off if your bait isn’t dirt cheap. Filing how everyone assumes inflation and energy prices don’t effect bait makers 😂
|
|
|
|
In reply to Post #91
Not really crap, a started ventilated crate and a 30 grand hand crafted silted platter will both collect hydro remnants lol
|
|
|
|
In reply to Post #93
You aren’t softening a bait by dosing it with some hydros for a few hours really, treat it like the chilli sauce on a kebab.
Regarding washing baits out just with water to soften I never do this, just add water little by little, about 40 ml at a time per kilo, shake bucket, close lid. In a day or two you saturate tge baits but not at the cost of the in built attractors.
|
|
|
|
In reply to Post #98
then piling the same heavily loaded bait in a killing it stone dead.
Walk into a chip shop blindfolded, and try and find the wagu steak on the floor…..
|
|
|
|
In reply to Post #97
Training the fish is a big part of it imo, bait is just a means to achieve it. As already said hydros/solubility will help initially just to speed up the process but at the end of the day a suitable spot baited with virtually risk free food whether that be boilies or chick peas will reap rewards. I've seen so many times guys catching on a high hydro attraction bait with a handful and then piling the same heavily loaded bait in a killing it stone dead. Way to much attraction causing either sensory overload or a danger signal.
|
|
|
|
In reply to Post #96
Is that the solubles in the bait doing the work or training the fish ? I remember an old lake I used to fish 20+ years ago. He fed the fish same place every night around tea time. He always used to come and get me half hour before and said fish there lad. Always managed to pick up a fish or 2.
And 100% agree I’ve baited spots before opposite end of a lake come back and a lad fishing has dropped on the spot. Luckily blanked and I caught after he left.
|
|
|
|
In reply to Post #95
Agree re location but it's possible to create a location and the soluble baits help if the venue is close enough to pre bait regularly to the same spot as I'm sure the breakdown leaves particles that still attract them and this can be used to create a spot in weed. Sods law says that once you have done it though someone else will be fishing it.
|
|
|
|
I like to look at it as an attractive circle. A standard out the bag bait might have an attractive range of 1-2m. By adding liquids or powders or both may increase the circle by double or more even for a short 2-3 hour window.
Location is always key. Lake I’m fishing I’ve outfished all the locals by just finding out where the fish will be in the last 2-4 hours of the day and first light. In this instance I’d say I’d likely get a take on 95% of Baits.
Any where else on the lake just hasn’t done a fish while I’ve been on.
|
|
|
|
In reply to Post #93
I don't think you are way off at all. On lower stocked or large lakes where it might be a long time before a carp turns up too many soluble ingredients can mean that your bait has become soft and has been whittled away by small fish long before the carp turn up. I suspect this might be a reason why tigers are often very effective on these types of water, simply because they are still there when the carp turn up.
For most anglers I suspect short (24hrs) sessions are the normal and for these initial/short term attraction is probably the most important aspect for their bait. How you achieve that is very much a matter of individual choice and there are many different options available.
|
|
|
|
I always thought lowering the solubility of the bait would allow it to remain intact and retain it's attractors for longer on lower stocked lakes where visits from carp may well be longer.
Also I'd add powder & paste attractors that would stay within the bait over prolonged periods, maybe I'm way off?!
I have used a liquid which did state in the profile that it could cause algae blooms if used in large quantities, not sure on the levels needed but it does make me wonder after a post below regarding this issue?
|
|
|
|
In reply to Post #90
It's just been overtaken by newer trends, it'll still work just as not washing them out does!
When you look how many fish are caught each week on so many different baits, rigs, methods etc does it really matter if you've got the basics right which is the one constant? Suppose it doesn't make as much money.
|
|
| | | noj | | Posts: 11459 | | | Social photographer... | |
|
In reply to Post #89
So you’re basically saying salt and shake is for the more discerning customer than brannigans and bait makers have crap drying facilities 
|
|
|
|
|
What happened to the trend of washing out baits? Saw a lot of people using a high attract hookbait over washed out baits.
|
|
|
|
In reply to Post #88
Ah right I wasn’t clear!
With my baits and I can’t speak for others they do receive an additional hydrolysate, as well as two other processes I believe optimise them. They are then dried as per normal.
The reason a lot of people don’t if I’m honest I think it’s probably the crates, they only hold 4kg max for efficient drying, I fill 50/60 trays with hydro covered bait and by the time they dry it’s builds up. Cleaning can be annoying especially when you only use water and not chemicals, I don’t mind it as I have a pressure washer lol
The other thing is obviously depending on the time of year naturally dried bait can vary in time taken, this is exacerbated with hydros.
However to play devils advocate here it goes to the consumer dry, they freeze and defrost it and suck it further in, by the consumer adding an extra layer of hydros on top of them you prolong leakage by a long while.
Plus some people find playing with bait fun, and I advocate that because it becomes more of an interest and people become more discerning in where and who they purchase from, without bogging myself up here that’s more my customer base.
If that all makes sense?
|
|
| | | noj | | Posts: 11459 | | | Social photographer... | |
|
In reply to Post #87
I’ve got time for you mozzi, you know that.. but your entire post, except the first line, is what I’m talking about.
What’s to stop you adding the hydro post boiling and charging accordingly if that’s what you feel makes the bait perform optimally?
And how does a dash of liquid on the surface of a bait that’s submerged for a period of time in said larger bodies of water outperform/outlast or improve the solid and liquid ingredients already within the bait itself?
Surely after a few hours that dash of liquid is long gone..
|
|
|
|
In reply to Post #86
I've been in the reverse situation, trying to tell customers they don't need to add anything but they want to be "edgey" and "different".
I do think that all baits benefit a dash of hydro, but thats because you're adding it after the heat stage and in an non compromised form. but thats down to each angler and what they prefer, and if they feel it necessary.
A bait has to work harder on a river, or on a larger body of water to retain its attraction long enough for when a carp pops by and I genuinely feel liquids can offer an easy to use solution.
so its not saying " the bait NEEDS this" rather, its an option that might make a difference ?
|
|
| | | noj | | Posts: 11459 | | | Social photographer... | |
|
In reply to Post #85
Glad somebody has said that. I’ll use liquids etc at times, but if I were using a boilie and it ‘needed’ soaking in anything to be effective in the eyes of the roller; I’d jog it on and buy something with a good track record as a stand alone bait.
|
|
|
|
In reply to Post #1
I would imagine your bog standard Fluoro pop up sold by the likes of dna, sticky and mainline are quite profitable, so is it really any surprise the carp fishing marketing juggernaut is doing its best to persuade us you need one on your hook covered in bait booster and powder to catch anything? Call me a cynic and all that!
I also don’t agree with the notion that if a liquid is natural it cannot be over done either. That hasn’t been my experience.
Same as most things in fishing, flouros and liquids at times will work for you, but I firmly believe at times they’ll also work against you. Probably now more than ever when it seems like everyone is being conditioned to make their hookbaits as loud as possible.
|
|
| | | Frenzy | | Posts: 11403 | | | [ MODERATOR ] | |
|
In reply to Post #82
in a better place 
|
|
| | | Frenzy | | Posts: 11403 | | | [ MODERATOR ] | |
|
In reply to Post #81
how can i be anything But!
Im blessed, just find certain topics quite sad
|
|
|
|
In reply to Post #80
Where would we be without experts though 
|
|
|
|
In reply to Post #80
Cheer up Joss for ferks sake it’s been a nice year for you lol
|
|
| | | Frenzy | | Posts: 11403 | | | [ MODERATOR ] | |
|
In reply to Post #77
exactly and we dont need some self confessed "expert" saying one has got it all wrong...and then end their thesis with
"i'm not having a pop"
"i know, someone told me"
"Ive observed this myself"
I had one bloke trying to tell me bright pink pop up wont work as the fish are sacred of them?
Blimmey, "if those fish can see in 14ft of very cloudy water, im impressed, and how come ive caught 24 carp this week including 7 x 40's and a 57 common and you've had 4 x 20's"
experts....worlds full of them 
|
|
|
|
In reply to Post #78
Unless you had a chance to watch them feed and saw how more atractive, paste wraped or just in your face colour was the first one to go when the fsh came in. There is no right or wrong here... Different situation different water different tactics... Both baits have their use matching and totaly off... Been proven many many times.... Especially when there is a competitive feeding going on there is room for getti g that extra or faster bite...
|
|
|
|
|
I've never quite understood the rationale behind baiting with one type of bait - presumably to get the fish comfortable feeding upon it - and then using another type of bait as your hook bait. It just doesn't seem to be a logical decision to make at all. In fact, I think it's completely irrational. However, I also think carp are dumb so it probably doesn't matter anyway.
|
|
|
|
In reply to Post #76
I don't even bother with that Joss.
i don't like the idea of baits wafting around more than necessary when carp are in the area.
Each to their own 
|
|
| | | Frenzy | | Posts: 11403 | | | [ MODERATOR ] | |
|
In reply to Post #71
on that occasion, i used a normal bottom bait, but drilled centre out and placed a bit of cork inside, not to make it pop up, more to make it lighter
|
|
|
|
In reply to Post #74
Pretty much how I’ve come to view bait usage, not by the bait but by the time of year of its use.
Cold months = not much natural food about, they have only two options eat bait or ignore it.
Summer months = natural food in abundance - work with it not against it
~ All lakes are different, but the ones I fish are stuffed with naturals and stocked to levels to match - they don't need to rely on bait at all to be honest, it does make it a proper challenge.
|
|
|
|
In reply to Post #70
As an amateur bait maker for nearly 40 years I like to experiment and change baits once or twice a year, my way of judging the success of my efforts is partly based on whether when using the bait do I catch more on match the hatch hookbaits or on alternative hookbaits.
If the carp really like and want my bait they will search it out and they are going to swim right past the alternative hookbait to pick up a match the hatch bait time and time again. If I catch more on alternative hookbaits I loose confidence in my feed bait as the carp are not as switched onto it as I want.
|
|
|
|
In reply to Post #72
Companies will start selling low attract hookbaits soon.......
|
|
|
|
In reply to Post #70
I'd bet 99% of those using a different hook bait to the free offering are using a high attract type either higher levels of flavour, glugged or brightly coloured. Maybe a less attractive hook bait would be more successful.
|
|
|
|
In reply to Post #70
And I assume that hookbait was fished on the bottom?
Unless the lake bottom dictates otherwise I prefer a bottom hookbait same as the freebies.
|
|
| | | Frenzy | | Posts: 11403 | | | [ MODERATOR ] | |
|
In reply to Post #69
years ago, i was at Les Quis...
Bernie said me to, "Why do you want your hook bait so different to the freebies?"
Good point i thought!
Changed hookbait to what i was providing as a free offerings, 17 fish to 53lb
|
|
|
|
In reply to Post #60
Had this convo with someone I buy some bits from. We were talking about one of his products I use in stick mixes, and he was saying how one of his customers uses loads of it in his spod mix. Despite them being natural products so safe at the level, wouldn’t that overload the swim and make it harder to actually find the hookbait? Bit like if you used high levels on dmpt, it might attract the fish into an area, but then would make it hard to zero in on a bait - or worse repel them.
Of course, you could use a high attract hookbait, but you’re then in an arms race of making them higher and higher attract to counter the concentration of attractors in the swim.
Like a lot of things, it’s an edge when there’s one or two people doing it, when everyone does it can work against you - and cynically bait companies have a vested interest in people using loads of expensive liquids in their spod mix! Remember the good old mugga days when a bucket of mix could cost £80-100 
|
|
| | | Frenzy | | Posts: 11403 | | | [ MODERATOR ] | |
|
In reply to Post #54
Trust me, reading these threads is extremely boring. Oh wait, we've been here quite a few times before havent we
As mentioned previously, i feel for the genuine original posters question and anyone who is actually seeking information without all the "scientist" barking
|
|
|
|
In reply to Post #66
I think, and it's only my opinion. In the hot summer temps. They prefer an easily digestible diet. I know they hang in weed beds for the oxygen content. They probably eat the snails that are attached to the weed, and the weed itself. They have to leave the weed beds at night due to the lower oxygen content. In my experience they don't go far. Weedbeds are the hotspot in the summer. If you can find a presentable spot or method.
Fishing close as possible to the weed seems to be the way to go where I fish. As long as you can be sure to land them. I've seen plenty flat rodded by a fish determined to get back into it's Lily pad home and ultimately cut off. If it's not a good chance of landing them then don't fish there.
|
|
|
|
In reply to Post #62
Flush through can be brilliant sometimes, just got to be good water, not road salt , cold water etc can kill sport.
I've noticed on small waters thay have a period in high summer
Where thay switch off for weeks sometimes, could be a rotten bait thing, we never used zigs years back to capitalise on non bottom feeders and being a poor surface angler I was snookered to some extent.
I've been on waters where the best plan of attack was a different bait every trip, so long as thay had not seen it before, maybe back then my baits were that unpalatable thay just switched off, small lake small stock.
|
|
|
|
In reply to Post #64
Could always delete that comment and let things continue in their current vein of talking about bait again.....you could even contribute. have a lovely Tuesday.
|
|
|
|
In reply to Post #56
Concentrate on what you do and not what others do.
In the context of people 'in the trade', some people need to pay heed to this comment ☝️
|
|
|
|
In reply to Post #62
Now that’s interesting, We got a bloom last year that was due to the surrounding field as as much as anyone’s guess. I think bait can play a part but it’s a combination of ideal factors that cause these, it couldn’t be forced via saturation of nutrients without the other factors such as wind and temperature / sunlight.
And I’m not sure if any particular bait would be more likely to cause this than others, it’s mainly phosphates isn’t it?
I can’t say I’ve looked at algae beyond it’s viability in baits to be honest ( it’s good ).
But now you mention it maybe it’s something to be wary of…
|
|
|
|
In reply to Post #61
Agree that some things will dissipate with time but on a shallow pit and the carps senses detection being im ppm you have to wonder. In terms of ffaa I'm guessing algae etc will utilise a percentage of these and cause algae blooms, I don't know just asking the question. One lake i fish is small and shallow and quite pressured with loads of bait going in. The most productive time is after the floods which got me thinking maybe a flush through is a good leveller?
|
|
|
|
In reply to Post #60
That’s an interesting angle, I’m sure things dissipate over time but if I’m a constant state of stimulation then I’d imagine they’ll gut bust?
We’re talking serious levels though, I’ve used 5 OTE of mixed hydros in a 48 hour session in a five acre pool before, albeit it 17ft at its shallowest
|
|
|
|
|
Just to get things a little back on topic to what is an interesting thread, if the carps senses are indeed much more sensitive to ours (without doubt imo) then if for instance you have a 3 acre pool that gets hit with litres of stimulants then surely the carp will be swimming around in a soup of attraction which overtime could result in them becoming "numb" to it. Where do we then turn to for a new source of attraction?
|
|
|
|
|
Anyone reading the thread from the beginning and actually digesting the posts will see some only post to antagonise dragging the thread down.
|
|
|
|
In reply to Post #56
I don’t disagree, but when I try to simply help others seem to try and twist it back on top a slagging match. It’s hard for me mentally to mute that. Appreciate your words though
|
|
|
|
In reply to Post #56
Sorry if I don’t respond to this soon as I’m having a busy spell and dealing with a lot of emails and messages at the moment
|
|
|
|
In reply to Post #55
Look guys, the forum is becoming something that is almost impossible to watch or read now.
I have sat and watched the bait section for years, then dropped it for months and then browsed it again.
I don’t want to comment on all of the subjects that appear and it is far too easy to listen to hearsay or rumours. There are some clever people here and some bitter ones too.
For all of the members who want to learn something I suggest you look elsewhere or perhaps private message some of the bait makers on other platforms as it becomes a slanging match on here.
It is impossible to all agree.
Now I know for a fact that there are some very true statements made on this thread that would tarnish some very well liked brands but instead of calling out these companies and arguing on here I suggest that you just let them get on with it.
What’s happened in the past is the past. We as individuals can’t change what others are doing or have done. If you do things well and honestly then you will do just fine in this industry. Slag people off and making claims about things that you may or may not actually know isn’t good for business.
I don’t agree with certain people on the forum but I do respect that they make good things. I also know when they post utter lies.
Everyone gets found out in the end.
Concentrate on what you do and not what others do.
The proof in how good your products are come directly from catch reports. You can be the biggest ******** in the world but if you make good baits then anglers will catch plenty.
I feel for the people who just want to know what works and what doesn’t !!
|
|
|
|
In reply to Post #51
Apologies, if you look back DarkoL knew I'd react to the bread comment, you're right it was interesting. I need to try not to let people goad me. then blame me for saying the things they set it up for me to say.
|
|
|
|
In reply to Post #50
now imagine trying to be honest and not use the superlatives, its not boring as much as its frustrating.
|
|
|
|
In reply to Post #48
I've not slagged it off, Ive said its not as good as the others mentioned?
if I say you're not as good at swimming s michael pheps Im not slagging you off lol
|
|
|
|
In reply to Post #51
Agreed.
|
|
|
|
|
Can we please get back to the topic? It was a really interesting topic until the same sh*t happened that happens in EVERY interesting bait topic.
|
|
| | | Frenzy | | Posts: 11403 | | | [ MODERATOR ] | |
|
In reply to Post #46
Your second paragraph....
The bait game has NEVER been any different...the are just so many of them these days all confessing to be something, all of them, especially the small ones with lots of google time coming up with stuff in their heads to try and make them look like they are some sort of scientist...they arent. Its all about profit and bravado ...and its boring
|
|
|
|
I just don’t get how one can call a bait average or not as good as other company’s Baits when it clearly catches fish and a lot of them. Maybe it don’t contain a lot of high end Ingrediants or has a lot of so called low end. but it works over and over again. catch reports tell you if a bait is good not the make up. I don’t care if a bait costs £12 to produce or £4 I’d go with the one that gets results and has a good customer service.
as said it’s unprofessional and very sad.
|
|
|
|
In reply to Post #45
Yet again, you're completely missing the point. I don't care how magical you are at making bait, who's garage floor you've swept or who's round balls you've had the pleasure of rolling in your hands.
As someone 'in the trade' it's unprofessional to come on a public forum & start slating other companies. That's it. There's nothing more to it.
You've been called out time & time again but still seem to think it's OK to come on here slagging other companies off, whether your information is correct or not. That seems to be the bit you just can't wrap your head around.
Nobody has forgotten the times you've been called out by other manufacturers either.
|
|
|
|
In reply to Post #46
It’s pretty obvious who the ‘very very respected’ bait maker is in your post. There are only a handful of actual bait makers still on here and only one who regularly posts used to get their bait contract rolled by ABS (while employed elsewhere).
Anyone who has been on here for a while will remember a public disagreement on the forum when that relationship went pear shaped.
I wouldn’t be happy to be outed for sending photographs like that if I was them.
|
|
|
|
In reply to Post #44
Just to reiterate, Geoffs business is his and I have no ill will towards him. do I put his baits in the same calibre as others? not all no, the four mentioned in another thread where two exceptional smaller firms and two very good larger firms with pristine units and high sales volumes, low profit margins that are sustainable due to the amount shifted. his baits serve a purpose and long may that continue, but I won't sit here and call something, something that it isn't.
Im really not out to upset people but there is a lot wrong with the bait world at the moment, people claiming others consultants blanked until using their gear, people rebagging cheap euro bait to sell as premium, people misleading the customer with smoke and mirrors etc, there is virtually no transparency. I;'ve even watched videos of some smaller firms claiming they have bespoke fishmeals etc manufactured in norway, it frustrates me.
Yes its no secret I own a bait company but I don't piss around the pot with superlatives and a hard sell, I tell the truth as I see fit on here and if anything, despite not naming my company, I've had people contacting me over here and facebook wanting to use my baits because they agree with my values.
I'm not everyones cup of tea and i'll never say I am, but what I am is something that speaks out without a paper spine, makes brilliant baits, and responds to ever single bait question I get be in inbox, text, messenger, irregardless if it leads to a sale or makes my work day longer.
anyway, my mental health was in the pan because of certain people, but I've learnt to like myself again and hang around the right people so Im not overly bothered of what the forum dwellers think anymore lol.
As you elude, there are some genuine reasons that I dislike certain firms, I could show people pictures of mouldy units, rat droppings in the mixers, factual inaccuracies, messages from other firms, demonstrative of a lack of knowledge / care etc BUT I receive that info because people know I'll call others out whilst keeping it confidential. if I tell someone i'll keep their name out of it, be that an individualised experience of direct wuote or photo, then I stick to my word. I could name two forum members, one a very very well respected person on here whos sent multiple photos of a certain bait firms contract rolling arriving in breadcrumb sacks, same with a les well known member, In effect forcing their hand to helping to validate a claim I make, but I wont, because I said I wouldn't. if thats me on the social pyre because of it then thats just the consequence,
I could just ignore it and crack on but there is little more frustrating if you do a job properly than having to sit and listen to others glorify the cowboys.
I do apologise I can't further verify some things.
|
|
|
|
In reply to Post #43
Oh give it a rest Boycie, I know what volume I sell and I know what volume others sell, I do more than alright cheers. to imply I never had credibility? pathetic. I offered dialogue but you can't be bothered.
You have no idea how the bait trade works, the truth isn't found on this forum much lol. if only you knew who I've helped formulate baits for.
At the end of the day, I've NEVER said a false word on this forum and the people who are informed know this, even if they dont like it lol.
|
|
|
|
In reply to Post #43
In reply to Post #35
I'm not sure you can lose what you've never had!
I am sure I lost my mind somewhere...
In reply to Post #36
You honestly couldn't be more wrong. How a business owner portrays themselves online can and does have a huge impact on their sales. Why do you think any large business employs a PR person?
Just because you give money to charity or offer advise to people on here, does not give you the right to go around slagging off, sorry, 'offering your opinion' on how other bait companies go about their business.
No matter what spin you put on it, it's bad practice and I can assure you it doesn't go unnoticed by potential customers. You're deluded if you think otherwise.
I've seen at least two comments on social media recently commenting on your 'opinions' on here.
If you give a valid reason, a genuine criticism, it needs to be tempered with why you dislike a product or manufacturer. Thing are some genuine reasons that may not be broadcastable and are better kept quiet.
|
|
|
|
In reply to Post #35
I'm not sure you can lose what you've never had!
|
|
|
|
In reply to Post #36
You honestly couldn't be more wrong. How a business owner portrays themselves online can and does have a huge impact on their sales. Why do you think any large business employs PR teams?
Just because you give money to charity or offer advice to people on here, does not give you the right to go around slagging off, sorry, 'offering your opinion' on how other bait companies go about their business.
No matter what spin you put on it, it's bad practice and I can assure you it doesn't go unnoticed by potential customers. You're deluded if you think otherwise.
I've seen at least two comments on social media recently commenting on your 'opinions' on here.
|
|
|
|
In reply to Post #40
It is to likeable business owners.....
|
|
|
|
In reply to Post #36
I would have thought highly influential
Been wrong before though
|
|
|
|
In reply to Post #36
Couldnt be more wrong...
|
|
| | | RKB | | Posts: 1130 |  | |
|
In reply to Post #36
That's not true - I have spent money with several firms (including 2 bait ones) that I wouldn't have otherwise known about if it wasn't for this forum.
|
|
|
|
In reply to Post #33
Nope, but then you’ve never used my bait or certainly haven’t ordered under your name. Atleast what I spout is true.
Boycie the advice was on not judging people based on a singular facet of their interactions I.e an Internet forum when I’ve got two minutes between job procedures, agin, worth taking
|
|
|
|
In reply to Post #34
No biggie it wouldn’t lol, carpforum makes no impact on anyone’s sales. And I put a LOT more into this forum than I take out.
|
|
|
|
In reply to Post #34
Spot on nick. Slagging off other companies (and then claiming not to be?!) Is the fastest way to lose credibility!!
|
|
|
|
In reply to Post #32
The fact is, you're on here making claims about other bait companies. Whether you're right or wrong, behaving in this way is unprofessional. It's cringey and it shows a complete lack of class. I don't need any advice from anyone with those characteristics thanks.
There are two very prominent bait companies on here, both running very successful businesses. I'm sure they both know a few other companies out there cutting corners & producing poor bait but you'll never see either of them make any comment about it.
If someone from Sticky baits came on here and started insinuating that a competitors bait was poor or that they loaded their bait with bread, it would be suicide for their business. You don't see it in any industry.
|
|
|
|
In reply to Post #30
Those arent anwers those are science fiction novels for kids aged 0-2.
|
|
|
|
In reply to Post #31
Well it seemed like a loaded question implying my company wasnt a "proper" one.
|
|
|
|
In reply to Post #30
That was a lot of words without actually answering my question.
|
|
|
|
In reply to Post #29
When people ask questions, they get answers, if you don't like my answers its of zero consequence to me lol. if its a good product I say so if it isn't, I say so. I've praised plenty of firms on here even firms who I genuinely don't get on with for reasons outside of fishing.
My product does the talking, never spend a penny on sales, I'm alright thanks. but cheers for spilling over into what was an interesting thread.
Word of advice Boycie, you know one side of me on a very little forum, and yeah, in written word I come across at my worse, but ask a few people who've done business with me and ask if they have a single complaint? no. they will say I am an extremely accommodating person who does their utmost for them. Im also a generous person, giving away a good 20% of what I earn to charities both within fishing and outside it. you can think me a fool, classless, all you like but in reality, you're basing that on a very niche side to who I am. I invite you to enter dialogue with me, lets share a conversation, Im genuinely serious, unless thats not something you want which is perfectly fine also.
have a lovely weekend
|
|
|
|
Would it be acceptable for someone from a proper bait company to come on here & make insinuations about their competitors?
It totally lacks class and is proper cringey. As an example, you don't see Ali Hamidi saying negative things on social media about Fox or ESP for usng plastic packaging.
It's not a case of being right or wrong, it's just good business sense to let your product do the talking and not look like a classless fool by commenting on competitors products.
|
|
|
|
In reply to Post #25
the way bread is mentioned in this thread is different, Goose in one about a bread hook bait i.e crust
A high level of bread crumb in a bait is completely different. its binds up, makes bait hider for fish to break down, detracts from from the nutrient profile etc.
if neither of you can determine the distinction, you're unintelligent and its not worth me trying to explain,
enjoy your weekend.
|
|
|
|
In reply to Post #1
I think overloaded flavours, or even at recommended maximum level can cause good baits to 'blow' faster than the same bait with a lower level, or even act as a repellent, especially those within the Nature Identical (NI) or Artificial flavour.
Natural flavours don't necessarily have the same effect.
I have seen high level flavoured baits be ignored until the level is reduced, or even stimulate feeding away from the bait. Weird that the carp appeared to be feeding around 10yards away from the bed of boilies, on an area that had no (apparent) natural food. Or that the carp would not take the boilies until they had been in the lake for around 4 days, yet the same base mix with a different flavour and essential oil at lower levels produced from the off.
The two flavours that I recorded as being 'repellent' were a high level of strawberry and cheese. For both of them I had to drop to half the recommended dosage for carp, although chub loved the cheese at maximum level.
|
|
|
|
In reply to Post #23
Is it fake bread then?
|
|
|
|
In reply to Post #23
How is it a far cry... same ingredients and will have a same nutritional profile. Just less water.
|
|
|
|
In reply to Post #23
No it is not.
|
|
|
|
In reply to Post #21
bread crumb in a boilie is a far cry from real bread but lets stop the trolling now 
|
|
|
|
In reply to Post #21
Only ABS breadcrumbs..... Stickys are better quality
|
|
|
|
In reply to Post #7
And some will try to say using bread crumbs in boilies makes them bad... The most consistent bait for carp... Bread... There aint carp out there that will not eat it.
|
|
|
|
In reply to Post #12
Different things taste better cooked at different temperatures, over cook a fish, its pants, under cook a vegetable you suddenly identify as a rabbit.
I agree about the peanuts, I personally either use peanuts simmered in solution as hookbaits or the roasted and salted variety.
But not everything works like that, sure you get the reaction but dependant on the source material thats either going to positively or negatively effect the bait.
A little tip here, some "burnt" items get really really positive reactions from fish, mainly sugars and spices, but only some sugars and only some spices. from my experience, yours may differ c:
|
|
|
|
In reply to Post #18
Yeah but the high quality bait firms have plenty of room to manoeuvre, go from bakers granary to tesco basic white, customers won't notice.
|
|
|
|
In reply to Post #17
Soon bait firms won't use bread far to expensive,
|
|
|
|
In reply to Post #16
Agree, remember trying that artificial bread and watching carp ignore it but happily take real thing.
|
|
|
|
In reply to Post #7
That's the thing though, it has hardly any smell to us but may well be really strong to the fish.
|
|
|
|
In reply to Post #5
Think Rod Hutchinson mentioned possible overloading of receptors with regards over flavoured baits, so difficult to know about these theories.
|
|
|
|
In reply to Post #13
No I don't think so, those naturals have they're own attraction which carp are obviously very adept at finding. It's a bit of a leap of faith but it's possible that some compounds have the potential to be somewhat addictive or at least have an umami effect. As ever it's all trial and error.
|
|
|
|
In reply to Post #12
So would the naturals found in the lake being fish benifit from cooking and be a better bait? We all know they love Swan muscles, crayfish etc. Long time ago I could buy cockles dirt cheap by the bucket full, tried in a heavily weeded lake throwing them in the edge by a Reed bed and into the reeds. Took a while for them to feed on them but they did eventually.
|
|
|
|
In reply to Post #11
From what i can gather most things cooked at around 140c will yield the best "flavour" take a roasted peanut, much more attractive to carp than a boiled one imo..lighlty toasted and bursting with natural flavour
|
|
|
|
In reply to Post #10
Huge can of worms you've opened there, cooked to what level rare or cremated or anywhere in between, how I like mine may be very different from how you like yours, would carp be the same? Some foods smell great when cooking others not so much, I'm not fond of the smell of fresh sprouts or spring greens cooking but like eating them.
|
|
|
|
In reply to Post #7
Great point about bread, sweetcorn etc. I've got right into natural "flavours" and when you look at anything cooked it's always a better bait like tinned corn being better than frozen. I'm now a firm believer that the mailards reaction is a big key to taste and attraction. The family of alkyl pyrazines are responsible for the smell of most baked or roasted foods and being soluble and detectable at levels like 30ppb in water.
|
|
|
|
In reply to Post #7
Interesting you mention sight I’d also bring to the table shape I’ve been squaring my baits for several years partially to remove the skin and to give the fish a slant on how to mange the bait.
|
|
|
|
|
I’ve caught a lot of carp dunking a pop into a bottle of butyric before. You need to be careful though a single drop on the swim will have you wondering where the vomit is!
|
|
|
|
|
One of the most consistent catchers that fish accept anywhere is bread, hardly any smell, sweetcorn catches and hardly smells. Love a stinky blue cheese and many foods that don't or have very little smell, they say we eat with our eyes but never really understood that. Have also been told coffee is almost tasteless and it's the smell that stimulates, who doesn't love the smell of bacon cooking? Maybe it's a combination of sight, taste and smell that we and carp enjoy.
|
|
|
|
I stumbled on to a John Baker interview that’s lasts an hour and a half and it was most interesting, well worth a watch.
In the mid 90s I was using M Crab and Lug worm amino compound plus others smelt great whilst pre baiting fish literally came to the margins and took the bait open season and we struggled until we dropped the levels right down.
You can use base mix on its own and catch fish, we or at least I like adding flavours for my sake not the fishes.
Frank Warrick fishing the Walthamstow Reseviours with washes out baits 2/3 decades ago.
|
|
|
|
Go back to the late 80's and early 90's and any carp book would show how to much flavour could attract carp but then when they got close it was too strong and they would be repelled. Move forward a few years and suddenly high-attract baits became all the rage.
A more modern view I guess is that on there own an overloaded bait can still work but 'fill a swim in' with them and they won't work until the levels in the area have dropped.
When I roll bait I become nose blind to the smell until the next day. Does the same happen to a carp? Do high level flavours saturate the receptors in the fish? If this does happen does it make them easier to catch (can't smell/taste anything so eat everything) or harder (can't smell/taste anything so don't eat anything)?
|
|
|
|
I tend to think you can definitely over do it and I prefer a more subtle bait personally. But you try selling a subtle pop up and see what reaction you get !
Many years ago one of the first batches of bait I ever made was flavoured with Crab, looking back I put in WAY too much. I kid you not you could smell them about three swims away. But I still caught in them, and not just once either. Frank Warwick talked a while back about having success with N-B Acid at levels that would stun an elephant. Yet he caught on them.
Don’t think I’d want to fish with a bait like that all the time. I’ve mentioned on here that last winter I played around with a hookbait absolutely loaded with DMPT due to its solubility I thought it might be an edge in really cold water. They stank. I caught **** all. They went in the bin.
So my conclusion is. Who knows? Probably only the carp and they aren’t telling.
|
|
|
|
In reply to Post #1
Years ago I was fishing baits and carp were coming near but then I think the additives repelled them and it overloaded there sences
I was young and stupid, I kept seeing Jeff kemp and he put me straight, Hutchinson first book has stuff on this, now I'm just old and still nod, but lesson learnt
|
|
|
|
In reply to Post #1
You can definately do too much and deter them with concentrates. Such as flavours and essential oils etc
With hydrolysates etc I don’t think you can physically put enough in to do that, they will drink it with a straw if you give them a straw lol
|
|
|
|
So I've just been reading about how much more sensitive a carps smell is compared to ours...
( I did already know this )
I wonder if like us they can smell or taste too much of something it can put them off or makes them not want to feed.
Just like if something was too sickly we wouldn't be able to eat too much or it?
Maybe with some of today's tactics of high attract bait liquids etc could we actually be making them avoid the baited areas till the smells have died down a bit due to them being too potent?
Apologies if this has been asked before, this is just my midnight thinking.
|
|
Bait