In reply to Post #14
You could add in tiger nut flour and still keep fat low.
Of course you can, depends of the other oil content of the other ingredients/liquids in any mix.
I personally like the taste of tiger nut meal / flour in a bait.
You could add in tiger nut flour and still keep fat low.
Of course you can, depends of the other oil content of the other ingredients/liquids in any mix.
I personally like the taste of tiger nut meal / flour in a bait.
In reply to Post #15
Happy memories but time and understanding moves on
So true Pete, that is why this forum is so good
Thought provoking
Happy memories but time and understanding moves on
So true Pete, that is why this forum is so good
Thought provoking
In reply to Post #15
So if you drop the protein in winter for your pond fish why not do the same for the carp you fish for?
My only points are these-
1- Carp will eat more in the winter if the protein and fat is kept low.
2- You can have a very nutritionally valuable bait that consists of 30% protein or lower.
I'd say that's pretty hard to argue with but I'm very open to learn of someone can prove otherwise
Good topic by the way
So if you drop the protein in winter for your pond fish why not do the same for the carp you fish for?
My only points are these-
1- Carp will eat more in the winter if the protein and fat is kept low.
2- You can have a very nutritionally valuable bait that consists of 30% protein or lower.
I'd say that's pretty hard to argue with but I'm very open to learn of someone can prove otherwise
Good topic by the way
Just thinking about this a little more whilst eating lunch.
I have just run a traditional 'winter' mix through my spreedsheet. Now I 100% agree that you can't design a bait on a spreedsheet but I think it is interesting to compare some of these baits to try and understand what is working and what is not.
So a 'winter' mix of birdfood, semo, maize meal and a little Lamlac to give some solubility does give a lower crude protein content of 20% (lower than I guessed before) with an oil level of 11%. If you measure the quality of that protein by an AA analysis it if also very poor, the most the carp can utilise if 50% of that 20% i.e the bait only has 10% of it available to the carp, the rest will be crapped out for something else to eat later.
My 'HNV' bait that I have been using unchanged for quite a few years now (over 8 years at least) is >45% crude protein but an oil content of just over 9% (unless I add more rolling which I only tend to do in late spring or the middle of summer). In a perfect environment on a lovely sunny day over 80% of that protein can be utilised by mr and mrs carp
Maybe my bait works all year due to the lower oil levels
The difference between the two baits on oil level is an increase of 20%.
Maybe with lower protein you can 'get away' with higher oil
I have just run a traditional 'winter' mix through my spreedsheet. Now I 100% agree that you can't design a bait on a spreedsheet but I think it is interesting to compare some of these baits to try and understand what is working and what is not.
So a 'winter' mix of birdfood, semo, maize meal and a little Lamlac to give some solubility does give a lower crude protein content of 20% (lower than I guessed before) with an oil level of 11%. If you measure the quality of that protein by an AA analysis it if also very poor, the most the carp can utilise if 50% of that 20% i.e the bait only has 10% of it available to the carp, the rest will be crapped out for something else to eat later.
My 'HNV' bait that I have been using unchanged for quite a few years now (over 8 years at least) is >45% crude protein but an oil content of just over 9% (unless I add more rolling which I only tend to do in late spring or the middle of summer). In a perfect environment on a lovely sunny day over 80% of that protein can be utilised by mr and mrs carp
Maybe my bait works all year due to the lower oil levels
The difference between the two baits on oil level is an increase of 20%.Maybe with lower protein you can 'get away' with higher oil
In reply to Post #18
>So if you drop the protein in winter for your pond fish why not do the same for the carp you fish for?
Because it would mean a complete change to the bait and the fish are used to it as it is. My pond fish would eat sawdust if I chucked it in so don't mind if I change the food. Also my pond is a 'closed' eco system and the filter would struggle to cope with more ammonia in the colder weather but that is very different to any lake or river full of other forms of life.
Is your point 1 valid if you still bait regularly and keep the fish 'feeding'? I would say possibly not based on results of people (like me) who fish through the winter on the same HNV bait and still catch there share of fish.
Point 2 I would only agree with if you are happy to lower what you call 'nutritionally viable' to a very low level for winter and assume you are fishing for carp that have almost stopped feeding altogether...maybe through a lack of HNV bait because the lake in question cannot be baited regularly
Just to confuse more...if I was to fish a lake that I had not baited into the winter and is not being heavily fished by others I would almost certainly go with naturals (worms and maggots) 
>So if you drop the protein in winter for your pond fish why not do the same for the carp you fish for?
Because it would mean a complete change to the bait and the fish are used to it as it is. My pond fish would eat sawdust if I chucked it in so don't mind if I change the food. Also my pond is a 'closed' eco system and the filter would struggle to cope with more ammonia in the colder weather but that is very different to any lake or river full of other forms of life.
Is your point 1 valid if you still bait regularly and keep the fish 'feeding'? I would say possibly not based on results of people (like me) who fish through the winter on the same HNV bait and still catch there share of fish.
Point 2 I would only agree with if you are happy to lower what you call 'nutritionally viable' to a very low level for winter and assume you are fishing for carp that have almost stopped feeding altogether...maybe through a lack of HNV bait because the lake in question cannot be baited regularly
Just to confuse more...if I was to fish a lake that I had not baited into the winter and is not being heavily fished by others I would almost certainly go with naturals (worms and maggots)
In reply to Post #19
I recon you could “get away” with higher oil too, but that doesn't mean it's optimal!
In my opinion.
I recon you could “get away” with higher oil too, but that doesn't mean it's optimal!
In my opinion.
In reply to Post #18
1- Carp will eat more in the winter if the protein and fat is kept low.
I remember reading a similar piece by John Baker on this theme.
But Is this because a carp is still instinctively is looking to fulfill its dietery requirements when it does decide to eat, in as few mouthfuls as possible ?
Hence the HNV scores so well. Therefore Saving energy.
Do carp just keep eating the lower quality baits, because it likes the taste more than nutritional value, that it just craps out with minimal benefit, rather than not eat for long periods of time and therefore burn up valuable fat reserves ?
1- Carp will eat more in the winter if the protein and fat is kept low.
I remember reading a similar piece by John Baker on this theme.
But Is this because a carp is still instinctively is looking to fulfill its dietery requirements when it does decide to eat, in as few mouthfuls as possible ?
Hence the HNV scores so well. Therefore Saving energy.
Do carp just keep eating the lower quality baits, because it likes the taste more than nutritional value, that it just craps out with minimal benefit, rather than not eat for long periods of time and therefore burn up valuable fat reserves ?
In reply to Post #20
I'd say point 1 is even more valid when baiting regular to keep fish feeding!
Also think of this- if they eat more bait of a lower protein and keep in eating it with minimal “off feed” periods then they will net more protein anyway.
Not that I think protein is as important in winter as perhaps you do!
The diversify things even more- the main boilie I will be using this winter will be over 30% protein purely because I do not have the time to roll enough. So I'm certainly not saying it won't work!
If I had the time I'd be on a lower protein mix though, and I'd be feeding more of it to the fish!
Recon I'd catch more too!
I'd say point 1 is even more valid when baiting regular to keep fish feeding!
Also think of this- if they eat more bait of a lower protein and keep in eating it with minimal “off feed” periods then they will net more protein anyway.
Not that I think protein is as important in winter as perhaps you do!
The diversify things even more- the main boilie I will be using this winter will be over 30% protein purely because I do not have the time to roll enough. So I'm certainly not saying it won't work!
If I had the time I'd be on a lower protein mix though, and I'd be feeding more of it to the fish!
Recon I'd catch more too!
In reply to Post #22
Hang on, are going around in circles
Hang on, are going around in circles
In reply to Post #22
Just because it's lower in protein does not mean it's lower in quality!
Something else to consider- not all protein is equal. As I'm sure you're aware.
Just because it's lower in protein does not mean it's lower in quality!
Something else to consider- not all protein is equal. As I'm sure you're aware.
In reply to Post #24
On a another note Pete, do you think the actual fibre/roughage/soluble content of ANY food fed to carp, and the related digestion & transit times are MORE important in cold winter temps or not.
On a another note Pete, do you think the actual fibre/roughage/soluble content of ANY food fed to carp, and the related digestion & transit times are MORE important in cold winter temps or not.
In reply to Post #26
ohh, good question
I have now written and deleted my answer 5 times...lets see if answer 6 makes anymore sense
This is me talking about my bait, feeding style and level of fishing over the winter months. Others fish different waters in different ways. I stick to one, low'ish stocked, water and (try) and keep a steady trickle of bait/feed going in weekly.
I haven't sold bait for over 10 years now but when I did I had a small range to cover some different angling situations.
For me I do not overly concern myself with gut transit times any more in December than I do in July. I want to have an attractive and nutritious bait that I can rely on all year without chopping and changing too much (I will often add a little more oil in the summer). I do not believe that what I feed the fish is all they eat. My bait is just a part of the diet. Other things in that diet will have an effect on the gut transit times and I can do nothing about them.
Does that make sense?
Just to add I do buy a few baits every year from various other manufactures. I like to try them out, often on the odd occasion I fish easier club waters, along side my bait because I just can't resist trying others too
I have 10Kg of a bait coming tomorrow which I will mix with my bait to feed over the next 6-8 weeks. I don't normally do this in the winter but this year is different in so many ways and I have more time for baiting up than in the last few years so why not 
ohh, good question
I have now written and deleted my answer 5 times...lets see if answer 6 makes anymore sense
This is me talking about my bait, feeding style and level of fishing over the winter months. Others fish different waters in different ways. I stick to one, low'ish stocked, water and (try) and keep a steady trickle of bait/feed going in weekly.
I haven't sold bait for over 10 years now but when I did I had a small range to cover some different angling situations.
For me I do not overly concern myself with gut transit times any more in December than I do in July. I want to have an attractive and nutritious bait that I can rely on all year without chopping and changing too much (I will often add a little more oil in the summer). I do not believe that what I feed the fish is all they eat. My bait is just a part of the diet. Other things in that diet will have an effect on the gut transit times and I can do nothing about them.
Does that make sense?
Just to add I do buy a few baits every year from various other manufactures. I like to try them out, often on the odd occasion I fish easier club waters, along side my bait because I just can't resist trying others too
I have 10Kg of a bait coming tomorrow which I will mix with my bait to feed over the next 6-8 weeks. I don't normally do this in the winter but this year is different in so many ways and I have more time for baiting up than in the last few years so why not
In reply to Post #27
My bait is just a part of the diet. Other things in that diet will have an effect on the gut transit times and I can do nothing about them. Does that make sense?
It makes perfect sense to me.
Glad to see it isn't just me that likes to see what else is going on in the bait world, regarding the..... I do buy a few baits every year from various other manufactures. I like to try them out
I like your common sense approach very much.
My bait is just a part of the diet. Other things in that diet will have an effect on the gut transit times and I can do nothing about them. Does that make sense?
It makes perfect sense to me.
Glad to see it isn't just me
that likes to see what else is going on in the bait world, regarding the..... I do buy a few baits every year from various other manufactures. I like to try them outI like your common sense approach very much.
OK so my next question for the experts
How specific are the yeasts and cultures found in csl and hydro wheat? If I want HW to kick off in the mix is it best to add a good dose of wheat, likewise csl with maize.
How specific are the yeasts and cultures found in csl and hydro wheat? If I want HW to kick off in the mix is it best to add a good dose of wheat, likewise csl with maize.
In reply to Post #29
Hard to accertain what you're asking exactly but I'd have a look at Celmanax if I were you.
Hard to get hold of the pure stuff, but VERY worth while.
PM me if you get stuck
Hard to accertain what you're asking exactly but I'd have a look at Celmanax if I were you.
Hard to get hold of the pure stuff, but VERY worth while.
PM me if you get stuck