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In reply to Post #51
Indication isn’t brilliant with a lead clip is it unless your discharging the lead on the take?
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In reply to Post #50
I'd agree a running rig is the ideal way to go. However in deep silt or weed not a goer really. I don't use heli rigs unless absolutely essential. Have had fish kite without indication. I generally believe unless you fish a very tight line the bite indication is less than ideal. I'd rather use a lead clip with a suitable rig for the substrate. Up against an island I'd use a running rig if possible
Otherwise you need a heavy lead and a tight line to fish for dropbacks. Makes line lay far from ideal.
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| | | noj | | Posts: 11459 | | | Social photographer... | |
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In reply to Post #44
I agree with you Nick. I’m never entirely happy with the indication on any semi fixed set up, really only ever comfortable with a running lead.. but you don’t half go round the houses to make your points, which is where you lose some people because in reality your points are always valid and based on real fishing experience.
Sorry, but it did tickle me seeing the copy and pastes thinking back to a debate you were involved in about nuts as bait and when somebody mentioned Brazils, Brinxy copy and pasted about 2 pages on the life and career of Alan Brazil (the footballer) 
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| | | Frenzy | | Posts: 11403 |  | | [ MODERATOR ] | |
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In reply to Post #48
more they way about one goes about it
and nicely edited 
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In reply to Post #47
Fair enough , he ain’t worth a ban  It was only a question though
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| | | Frenzy | | Posts: 11403 | | | [ MODERATOR ] | |
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In reply to Post #45
Thats the last insult you will make before i ban you
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In reply to Post #1
Can these lot not be banned, always the same people bickering. Youre all correct, everyone else is wrong. Now please stop boring us all.
In answer to the ops question. You are not going to get more bites due to angles approached. As its still a stiff rig and will still have similar pivot points. What a helicopter will help with though, is presentation. If the inline buries into the lake bead, the hooklink could be left pointing in a more upwards way and may stand out to the fish. With the hei opter this is a lot less likely to happen as in theory, the rig shoulds always lay flat on top of the lakebed as there is no weight attached to drag it in it anywhere. Obviously all in theory as the rig can land on all sorts.
If your confident that what you are fishing on is perfectly clear and hard the inline all the way, anything you arent sure of, or you know is a bit dirty, helicopter wins the day
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In reply to Post #44
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In reply to Post #42
In all the years I’ve used them I’ve experienced the lack of indication/kiting scenario once. Literally once. And I still got adequate indication to know I’d hooked one and landed the fish just fine..
Sorry, I simply don't believe that. Please note, not because you are lying, but because you can't see every pick-up, dropped bait out in the water. I've watched fish eject baits and hooks in clear water up to 15 metres or so, any further than that or cloudy water you might not see it.
I've seen the kiting and lack of indication a few times, and it's not always blatantly apparent; if there is a fair breeze and you retrieve after a fish has made it say to a patch of weed in the arc, you might not know about it.
Some current anglers have written about lack of indication from helicopter set-ups on waters, I can remember an article on Wraysbury, with pictures describing the scenario above, sorry, I can not remember who wrote it.
Lewis Read has however written articles saying that anglers should be able to accept that at times they will need to swap lead arrangements.
Also I would say that ninety per cent of the time I will use a helicopter rig on leadcore, or a Chod arrangement, which also incorporates the helicopter style arrangement. This is my go-to lead set-up and I’ll use it whenever I can When a named angler says that, it isn't considering the issues, (his non helicopter set up is when fishing the margins or weedy waters), not all of them understand or know the issues. Terry Hearn has mentioned the issues in articles.
My broken knot, a combi-rig, black Amnesia to Merlin. I'd just landed a fish, without thinking I cast it straight back. Next take minutes later I lost a fish, however, I had also landed a pike on the rig and checked it after, and didn't see any damage. It broke at the knot.
That last lost fish was at Brackens Pool, Nazeing, now I haven't fished Brackens since 2013 I think. Lesson learnt, since then I check every rig, knot etc, and test tackle before I even fish with it.
Basically, from every lost fish, I try to take care to avoid that happening again. I learn from it, I eliminate that item, that set-up, that rig, that situation from my fishing.
A classic example was fishing Ants on Brackens. I lost a couple of fish that made it to the snags to the left of the swim. Snags that if I had been able to tire the fish out in front in clear water they would have avoided. I was bringing fish towards them during the fight.
However they were still lively and went in there.
I was able to fish the same spot from another swim, and by hitting takes quickly from the other swim prevented them arcing in, and landed every fish that I got indication from for the rest of the session, a number of big 20's including one of the 'wanted list', the two tone scaley mirror.
At Alton Water, I did have a couple of lost fish, both to hooklink breakages, and both on helicopter set-ups. The bottom of the reservoir is littered with the remains of the old village. At times whole bricks, roofing tiles, metal guttering, even the old road culvert cause problems.
I found moving away from the slower indication of the helicopter lead in these swims, casting a bolt rig, (or running lead on a tight line), enabled me to land fish from a particular swim or two with no more problems.
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In reply to Post #42
In all the years I’ve used them I’ve experienced the lack of indication/kiting scenario once. Literally once. And I still got adequate indication to know I’d hooked one and landed the fish just fine.
Once is a lot imo. Never happened to me in 25 years.
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In reply to Post #11
Don’t hate to point it out mate, just don’t make out like it’s gospel when it clearly isn’t.
I’ve also watched plenty of fish in the edge and helicopters have worked just fine. I’d prefer an inline for that sort of fishing but the versatility of a helicopter rules the roost for anything out in the lake. The tiny difference it may make in hookups I believe is more than negated by the amount of times it will present better than anything else, leading to more opportunities in the long run.
I’ve watched fish do me over and over again on 5oz inlines… sometimes it just happens, but I’m not going to go and claim that inlines are crap.
In all the years I’ve used them I’ve experienced the lack of indication/kiting scenario once. Literally once. And I still got adequate indication to know I’d hooked one and landed the fish just fine..
Paisley may have written that how ever many years ago. If we’re referring to writing as evidence, how about the hundreds of articles from anglers at the top of their game, the likes of Terry Hearn, Oz Holness, Nige Sharp etc etc. that use helicopters for the majority of their angling. I really don’t think they would be using them if they caused the issues you suggest.
I find it all a bit confusing. You test everything, from dozens of mono’s to every lead setup possible, have had 0 hookpulls since time began, but then admit to losing fish due to knots failing which is the most basic mistake imaginable  .
I haven’t had a knot go whilst carping since I was fishing commercials as a school kid…
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| | | Cam | | Posts: 6377 |  | | [ MODERATOR ] | |
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In reply to Post #38
I have some of the Ring Leads, Taylors Lead Lounge,
All my Leads come from Taylors
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In reply to Post #39
I think the Nash design is so that the lead will discharge when conditions dictate it necessary. Will not discharge when a carp shakes its head. You have to use what suits your needs.
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In reply to Post #29
The ones I found to be better was the solar ones as they had a almost flat curve to them and the worst being nash as they looked almost completely closed and had a little bobbly bit that the swivel clipped over
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In reply to Post #32
Not what I was thinking about I’m talking with and without swivel which one is more efficient at dropping the lead?
Sorry, my mistake.
With no swivel!
The swivel actually gave the 'lift' extra movement so the lead would stay on a fraction longer
Was cutting the swivels off for as long as I can remember whilst using lead clips due to movement, never had any problems with it.
Now though I use Ring Leads, thinner gauge than the brass loop with minimal movement. I feel I get the best of both worlds now.
I have some of the Ring Leads, Taylors Lead Lounge, ebay specials.
They do go on my run rings quick links, or on the occasions I have to go to helicopter setups, but found they can be a bit fiddly at times.
In reply to Post #33
I cut the swivels off and replace with a small split ring. It discharges off the lead clip with no issues and has the added benefit of being able to straighten out and discharge the lead if you ever have to pull for a break (if the lead is trapped).
Phil,
If you want Leads with a small ring, try the company I mentioned above:
Taylors lead lounge leads
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In reply to Post #33
I cut the swivels off and replace with a small split ring. It discharges off the lead clip with no issues and has the added benefit of being able to straighten out and discharge the lead if you ever have to pull for a break (if the lead is trapped).
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| | | Cam | | Posts: 6377 | | | [ MODERATOR ] | |
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Was cutting the swivels off for as long as I can remember whilst using lead clips due to movement, never had any problems with it.
Now though I use Ring Leads, thinner gauge than the brass loop with minimal movement. I feel I get the best of both worlds now.
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In reply to Post #32
It makes very little difference, it all depends on the thickness of the wire and the hardness of the tail rubber. If you think about what has to happen for the lead to discharge it becomes obvious. The lead swivel, or loop, has to slide up the clip separating the main clip body from the attachment leg. The tail rubber needs to stretch slightly to allow this, once the swivel is bearing against the tail rubber any serrations on the clip come into play. If you want the lead to discharge easily use the leads with the thinnest wire swivel or loop on, and soft tail rubbers, and cut back the leg on the clip. All this is largely unnecessary in 95% of scenario's IMO. I would usually try to set a clip up so that the lead would be retained on all but the most violent takes, but would release if the fish ran through weed.
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PB products now do a lead with the brass loop put in the only right way, perpendicular. They are sold with a swivel, but promoted to be just as safe with or without the swivel. The brass loop is just as thin as the swivel, it even gives more room for movement and dislodgement than the swivel. Imo just as safe as with a swivel, but maybe a bit more direct.
Or you take a round sea lead and big hammer, that also works 
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In reply to Post #28
You carry on advising folk to cut the swivel off then , me on the other hand will stick to my safe rigs thanks , can you prove you have tried this on these clips ? I wonder what Korda would say if you asked the question ? Like I've told you before , you're full of it, nobody believes you , crawl back to where you came from
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In reply to Post #31
Not what I was thinking about I’m talking with and without swivel which one is more efficient at dropping the lead?
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In reply to Post #29
The ESP smooth peg clip was probably slightly easier. The Korda and Fox all have indentations or ridges to hold the tail rubber in place.
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In reply to Post #27
Ok so one make of clip didn't work with one make of lead? It's not really basis to say it's dangerous to do so with all them then is it?
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In reply to Post #28
They might discharge without the swivel but which one discharges easier and quicker? Gone slightly of topic but interesting.
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In reply to Post #20
I feel so sorry for you as you are the one who has lost the plot, and when you are wrong just get offensive.
Now I have a number of leads, from Korda, Fox, from various sellers on ebay and some a friend makes for me. The Korda leads have the thickest brass stem, and the tightest loop, but came off every lead clip make I tried; Korda (which have changed over the years, so all types), Fox, Bank Tackle, ESP and Gardner. The other leads all came off equally as easily. Just lifting the swivel end of the leadclip, the leads fell off every time, even where the lead coating had been continued up the loop as per Korda leads.
I used lead weights in 2oz, 2.5oz, 3, 3.5 and 5oz.
Please ignore carpe diem as he really has no clue what he is talking about
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In reply to Post #26
I've actually tried it myself personally and found on the lead and clip that I used that with cut off swivel would not eject from the clip , I can remember thinking that the lead I had with the cut off swivel will only be useful now only for helicopter rigs and it stayed in my bag for years unused as I prefer a swivel on my helicopter set ups .
Its not hard to try the rig to see if the lead can eject , you just need to try it before being used . I tried it and the swivel free lead wouldn't come off the clip , I didnt claim that all clips are the same if you read my post , 1 clip and 1 lead was enough for me to not use it , its called common sense
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In reply to Post #24
So it depends on the different brands as opposed to being every one like you made out then ? Why not say that rather than just condemning it as dangerous? No I haven't tested each make of lead or clip, just as you haven't either! Makes no odds to me either way as I don't remove the swivel.
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In reply to Post #22
Same findings as me Ged
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In reply to Post #21
Sorry Ian but you are wrong , lead clips differ from each manufacturer , as does the wire gauge on each maker's leads so to say that they do discharge means you must of tried every lead clip and cut every swivel off each different lead out there so in my eyes you cannot back that statement up .
I've tried it a long time ago as I thought I would ditch the swivel as it had no use but found on several lead clips that they will not come up and over the lip of the clip , I can dig some out for proof if need be .
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In reply to Post #21
Got to agree with Ian before I started making my own leads I always used to cut the swivel off and never had a problem with them discharging
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In reply to Post #21
It very much depends on the thickness of the wire loop, and the type of lead clip. I've got some old leads with just a thick wire loop, they will not discharge from certain types of lead clip. If it's a thin wire loop they will discharge similar to having a swivel attached.
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In reply to Post #20
Sorry Andy but you're wrong. People have been cutting th swivels off for years ,it's nothing new,secret or dangerous. I personally don't cut them off but know others that do. They still discharge as required
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In reply to Post #19
Quote ....Another thing I started to play around with was leads that didn’t have a brass loop and a swivel. At Avid, they had some leads made with a Double Barrel Ring Swivel moulded inside the lead, and this basically reduced any chance of a tangle to zero. What’s more, it improved how rigs laid on the lakebed no matter what range was being fished, because there was never that hinge – that play that can cause tangles through the air, through the descent to the lakebed, or upon landing
What the hell are you talking about , you really have lost the plot , the article was on about leads that DIDN'T have a brass loop and a swivel , please people ignore this man's dangerous advice, its very dangerous to cut a swivel off a lead for use in a lead clip
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In reply to Post #16
Wow I can’t believe sometimes what I’m reading on here , to suggest that a lead would be better off without the swivel is just plain stupidity and very dangerous .
Lead clips are designed for small diameter wire like you find on a swivel , if you cut the swivel off then the lead has a good chance of lodging in place and not ever coming off the clip because of its thicker gauge wire , bad advice imo , do not ever do this
Bliss, once again you are talking out of your rear end.
I personally don't use Lead Clips, although I have a few in my tackle box. I have tested all the leads I own in the lead clip, and in fact, the lead with the swivel cut off, the wire gauge would slide off the lead clip as easily as with a swivel on.
Plus the fact it may not sit right!
It's actually more likely to sit right without the swivel!
Carpology article I think by Rob Hughes
THE PROS SECRETS: THE HUMBLE LEAD CLIP
Everyone uses a lead clip, right? It’s just about the most versatile item of end tackle around and is subsequently one of the most popular.
EVERYONE USES A lead clip, right? Since they first arrived on the market, most carp anglers will have enjoyed their benefits. As far as convenience goes, it doesn’t get much better.
Angling situation
But here’s the thing: are they working for you, or against you? Like most of the articles I write for CARPology, I’m playing Devil’s Advocate and offering my thoughts on the theme. I’m not the kind of guy to say ‘this is the right way’ and that you should follow, but when it comes to these technical aspects, I believe it’s right to analyse what you’re trying to achieve and then tweaking it to suit the carp you’re fishing for.
I’ll give you an example. A few years ago I was stalking in a quiet corner of Baden Hall’s Glovers Pool. There are a few little sloping sandy spots that you can get them to dip down onto if they’re in the mood and you approach with caution. The lakebed can be softer than it looks in places here, as I found out after under-arming out my usual set-up: a QC Lead Clip, Naked Tailrubber and a long anti-tangle sleeve – gently onto the spot. Although the lead entered with minimum force, it sank into the ether, and the anti-tangle sleeve was sticking up like a crane!.
That scenario got me thinking. How many times have I been fishing ineffectively, all because I’ve got stuck in my ways using the same set-up all the time?
Lose the swivel
Another thing I started to play around with was leads that didn’t have a brass loop and a swivel. At Avid, they had some leads made with a Double Barrel Ring Swivel moulded inside the lead, and this basically reduced any chance of a tangle to zero. What’s more, it improved how rigs laid on the lakebed no matter what range was being fished, because there was never that hinge – that play that can cause tangles through the air, through the descent to the lakebed, or upon landing
My advice, don't follow anything carpe diem says as it is just trying to cause an argument, where he has no valid points to make.
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| | | BRB | | Posts: 1377 |  | |
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In reply to Post #17
Try a Heli lead on the leadclip.
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In reply to Post #16
Plus the fact it may not sit right!
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In reply to Post #6
Quote : If you try Mark1009's advice of a leadclip, cut the swivel off the lead. The swivel allows for a little extra movement, which can be enough for the carp to use to eject the hook.
Wow I can’t believe sometimes what I’m reading on here , to suggest that a lead would be better off without the swivel is just plain stupidity and very dangerous .
Lead clips are designed for small diameter wire like you find on a swivel , if you cut the swivel off then the lead has a good chance of lodging in place and not ever coming off the clip because of its thicker gauge wire , bad advice imo , do not ever do this
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In reply to Post #10
Spot on Tom , my experience with the heli set up is very similar
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In reply to Post #9
I’m fishing a lake where 5/6 fish a year is a good one not a runs water.
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In reply to Post #12
Correct.
And one of the last carp I lost was on Nazeing Meads Central Lagoon, from the back of Long Island, fishing Ratties swim, with a helicopter rig cast around 100metres to showing fish. I'd had one take which I landed, a 24lb mirror, which had given a proper run, recast to the same spot, then an hour later had 2 bleeps. I reeled in to discover the fish had made it to some overhanging branches on the island 30metres or so away.
Can't forget that trip, it produced a 12lb tench as well, on a running lead cast to the edge of the island.
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In reply to Post #11
You haven’t had a hook pull in 20 years?
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In reply to Post #10
Unless you’re extensively filming underwater Nick I don’t understand what tests you can have done that aren’t just “hearsay”? (Watched too much Depp x Heard trial).
I hate to point this out, but fishing a water where you can lower your baits in, on any set-up, and go old school, write and take notes of how lead set-ups behave in water on a take.
Underwater cameras present their own problems, that of a feature that does not belong, which could be making carp wary of the area.
Helicopter rigs have been well written, not just by myself, but Tim Paisley has also written about funny hookholds, hookpulls, strange indications, and hookpoints going over, (Big Carp), but I have found that helicopter presentations actually give a lot of missed takes with no indication. Even with some 'positive' indication, the fish can move a long way for minimal indication on the buzzer or hanger/swinger. One or two bleeps can lead to a fish having moved 30-40 yards when fishing at range.
Tim Paisley ignored a lot of 'roach' takes until he reeled in and found a carp on the end.
I try not to use helicopter setups, preferring running leads, but I will go semi-fixed if conditions don't allow running leads. I can honestly say, I have not had a hookpull since I fished Ardleigh back in the 2000's. I have had the occasional fish loss, and that is nearly all down to me not checking knots properly after putting them under pressure, and that includes in standard use. In other words, check your line and knots every cast!
There has been the occasional fish making it to an unknown snag.
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In reply to Post #1
A stiff link like you’re using is more likely to present well with a helicopter. That said, you’ve had a few so it’s clearly working. I don’t think it would automatically stand a better chance of takes in the manner you suggest, but it would minimise the likelihood of the lead plugging and the link sticking up at an angle.
Unless you’re extensively filming underwater Nick I don’t understand what tests you can have done that aren’t just “hearsay”? (Watched too much Depp x Heard trial).
I’ve used helicopters pretty much exclusively for at least 10 years. I can only remember 2 or 3 hookpulls in the last 5 years +, and 99% of my hookholds are rock solid.
Those hookpull’s occurred immediately after lifting the rod and the points had completely gone over, suggesting the hook had hit bone… nothing to do with the lead arrangement.
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| | | noj | | Posts: 11459 | | | Social photographer... | |
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In reply to Post #8
What about the tapered sleeve the bead sits on?
And what about the number of beads you’re needlessly buying?
Sorry mate I’m sure it works well for you but personally I’ve never got my head around impeding the lead
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In reply to Post #7
I use a no trace bead comes off everytime?
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| | | noj | | Posts: 11459 | | | Social photographer... | |
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In reply to Post #1
Sack the shocker element off straight away. Potential catastrophe in the making.
Fish it semi fixed with corresponding swivel and lead insert or running, but a second bead to achieve what a tight drag on the rest does is poor form
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In reply to Post #4
In reply to Post #3
I know I won’t achieve that shocker effect, I’m thinking on a helicopter, the rig has more movement so it will hook fish coming in at different angles better than an inline setup .
An inline arrangement has the best hooking potential over any other lead set-up. The fact that it gives minimal movement of the lead means it hooks the best.
If you try Mark1009's advice of a leadclip, cut the swivel off the lead. The swivel allows for a little extra movement, which can be enough for the carp to use to eject the hook.
In terms of hooking potential, and I have experimented with semi-fixed leads, the helicopter lead gives worst hookups, allows the fish to eject the hook and worst bite indication, and at range that indication is decreased.
Helicopter rigs can also lead to funny hookholds, and hookpulls.
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In reply to Post #4
Try a lead clip arrangement on a combi rig. That would give you what you want. Boom material and length can be adjusted to suit the bottom you are fishing on. Try it on one rod against what you are currently using. See if it's better.
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In reply to Post #3
I know I won’t achieve that shocker effect, I’m thinking on a helicopter, the rig has more movement so it will hook fish coming in at different angles better than an inline setup .
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In reply to Post #1
Unless your helicopter rig is on a very tight line you are better off with the set up you have. To get the same effect the rig would need to be close to the lead with the beads set very close together. Only worth using the helicopter on a dirty bottom when necessary. Imho.
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In reply to Post #1
If what you are doing works, and your results are comparable to others, don't change.
If you try it on another rod and the results are better then go with it.
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I’m currently using a d rig made up of trick link with an inline lead shocker style - I have caught a couple. Would I be better fishing this style of rig on a helicopter set up? I’m thinking on a helicopter a fish coming in from different angles to the rig I stand a better chance of take over the inline?
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Rigs