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In reply to Post #152
Investing time effort and money into mixing blends and sending them to trusted anglers to test. It can get quite expensive but proportions matter and then one angler will be quite generous with how much they use others will be very very conservative etc. They get as much as they use so it’s not a cost thing to them, they understand the gravy train runs so long as valid data is the return. There is expectations both ways but then I can use my own experiences and that of my anglers and come up with spread sheets thst present the data in a visual and tangible way to me.
I can then make alterations based on the date and predict a result ( over time ) and if it follows the predicted trend I know certain theories about why and how each item is working merit more investigation.
It’s slow but it’s thorough, I’ve only just released a second boilie range and I’ve been trading in an official capacity since January 2014 😂 I resisted the nut bait trend as long as I could haha.
As for your current bait, figure out what you want tge hydros to add, then figure out the qualities of the individual components and there best working method, and go from there.
For example I find Minamino makes zero different in bait if it is added pre-boiling and I’ve tried from 5g all the way up to 110g per kilo, but added after wards it’s a different beast.
As a starting point all marine / meat hydros are more effective post boiling, but some are very valid to still add prior to cooking.
Also as an add on I wasn’t referring to Minamino as a hydro, merely a liquid component in a mix 
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In reply to Post #151
I catch a few pike with cod liver oil hemp mix injected
Shaken up and injected, is cod liver oil good for carp
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In reply to Post #151
how did you come up with you mixes for these hydro cocktails? love the sound of it. id love to have a play with making a mix to match my current bait i roll.
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In reply to Post #148
I don't look at it as a "vs" situation, minamino is extremely expensive, but it works very well mixed with hydros.
I used to sell a minamino, calanus, liquid yeast and liquid keramine mix. it was awesome. a coupleof the powders I dissolved into it I cannot get in any quantity anymore so no longer sell it, still, a 50-50 split with minamino and a hydro is always a winner.
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In reply to Post #147
my favourite firm is mine lol. I know who you mean, some companies have their differences but I will only go on personal experience with stuff. virtually everyone with large ranges has some crap stuff.
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In reply to Post #146
Whatever floats your boat, I tend to use chops so just add a load of off cuts and chops to a bucket and add hydro if I'm using it. its so effective you cant really use it incorectly unless you put it in your tea
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In reply to Post #143
what do you think about minamino vs hydro? what would be the optimal amount in a boilies if we refer to minamino, what does it combine well with? a fish or vegetable liquid. Cheers.
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In reply to Post #145
I'd already contacted them at that point nick. But yeah they have been decent in the end. Funnily enough though someone at your favourite company near me was slating them massively not so long back for the quality of their hydros!
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In reply to Post #143
Cheers mozzi very helpfull. I grab some of that to with the other stuff .can all these be coated on boilies before they go in freezer or is it best to soak them for few days or night before a ses once they come out freezer .
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In reply to Post #144
Said from tge beginning to contact them. Helpful pleasant people
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Update on my issues with baf
Been speaking to cal (very helpful guy) , it appears checking the batch numbers I was sent old stock ,he has assured me I won't receive that again and is sending out replacements foc and told me to keep the runny stuff to use as I please.
So it's taken a while but if I do get what I wanted in the first place all is well in the end
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In reply to Post #139
if you want to you can, I believe its the base chemicals rather than the smell which cause some flavours to have investigative trigger reactions and depending on how its been compounded will be what dictates its best application.
If you want a smell reminiscent of monster crab, theres a natural way to do it now oddly enough, get yourself some "calanus hydro" - its made from calanus a type of plankton and its one of the best things you can add to a bait inside or out, I get a slight whiff familiar to monster crab but a real food like umami kick also. being naturally a bit thinner than some hydros it works brilliantly to coat baits and hookbaits. in feed bait 50-100ml per kilo of feed is ample, in pots of pop ups, being mindful of the buoyancy, a teaspoon or two in the tub will help it immensely.
As with all things fresh is best. I would happily purchase from any moderately busy tackle shop but avoid any dusty bottles.
Madbaits, aa, handcraft and myself also sell it but for the purpose of transparency as I do not pay any fees on here I'd say it would be fairer to purchase form one of the other three.
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Little tip from someone who uses compounds that react with eggs on a daily basis ( gotta love the butyric )
Add enough basemix to turn your eggs into a sort of sludgey consistency, a bit like guacamole or bolognese, then add the strong liquids, it wont react with the eggs in the same way.
This is if you arent using another liquid to dilute it first, or don't want to risk it reacting with other, more expensive than egg ingredients.
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| | | Frenzy | | Posts: 11403 |  | | [ MODERATOR ] | |
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In reply to Post #140
think you've answered your own question there
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In reply to Post #139
This extremely strong crab flavour has an aroma that you will never ever forget. This super pungent essence has proved to be one of the most successful bait flavours ever used on the market. It is a notorious carp catching flavour. It is also particularly effective when used with Black Pepper oil.
Recommended inclusion levels for this concentrate are 3-10ml per kg base mix.The lower level comes through nicely and the high level comes through strong. We have actually tested this concentrate up to 20ml per kg base mix with excellent results.
For high attract pop ups we recommend adding up to 3ml per 1 egg mix.
This concentrate CAN NOT be added to the liquid egg neat, it must be added to the liquid pack first.
Please note: This is a strong flavour so a little goes a long way. Also we would not recommend using in the house as this one has a very very strong aroma.
All our concentrated flavours are of the highest grade/quality available on the market
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In reply to Post #135
Hi thanks , would the Monster Crab be ok to coat the boilies,popups as it a Concentrate . Looks very thin and they say its realy strong .
Sorry new to this hydro stuff .
Looking to make somthing like the old ub baits gb crab with hydra k.
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In reply to Post #137
So did I (baf) until the rubbish they have recently sent me
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In reply to Post #136
I get my hydro from baf or bacarel.
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I've now had some bits from as baits. The fish hydro really isn't thick at all.
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In reply to Post #131
AA baits are sound, the new owners are very helpful. They are now located in rock ferry by birkenhead on Wirral, but their postage is great.
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In reply to Post #130
Has anyone used the Ocean + Liquid or the Monster Crab Concentrate.
Was gona order the shrimp but these look good.
Can they be used to soak and glug boilies/popups .
And would you just use water to thin out the ocean thick hydro or could i use the crab as it looks thin .
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How many years ago are we talking? could of sworn I got a fews bits trade last year with an email signed Alan....
right, time for a lie down lol
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In reply to Post #129
I thought Alan sold up a few years ago... hence why it moved from warrington
Still great products from experiance
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In reply to Post #129
Alan sold AA baits a good few years ago. He used to live reasonably close to me, so many a time i put my order in on the phone and picked it up from his house….i did chat to him just before he sold AA Baits and he advised the new owners were good lads and all would be good….i havent used them for a few years but i have no reason not to buy from new owners.
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In reply to Post #129
Yes aa baits. A lot is baf gear for sure. They do say there liver hydro is from a new source though
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In reply to Post #128
You mean AA ? They’re good, Alan is very helpful. I believe a few things might be the same gear ?
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As baits have a great selection of liquids by the looks of it, plus the rest of the enzyme gangs rubbish if anyone is interested
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In reply to Post #126
Gotya
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In reply to Post #123
You’ve read that without reading below, I was speaking ironically to scaley. - mix did in a cement mixer and most of it will be on the floor lol
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In reply to Post #122
You try mixing dips / hydros in a cement mixer, I dares yas
I know Mozzi, those types of mixer things were the first that sprung to mind. but this is an age old problem, heavier and lighter liquids within a product.
I mean what sort of machines do they use to mix/filter/container fill these products in the first place ? they seem to be consistent at product source, they have to be.
Must be a smaller version available, would save a lot of customer complaints over the course of a year.
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In reply to Post #122
I've just sent a vid comparing to someone called Cal,he's the md apparently
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In reply to Post #122
I don't know about cement mixers, but its piss pore not having consistency to a degree, I would have thought
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In reply to Post #109
You try mixing dips / hydros in a cement mixer, I dares yas 
there are several factors that can cause thinning in the top of the bottle but the whole thing being thing as ippsypoo says is unusual to be fair. All I can suggest is messaging steve carrie as he owns BAF
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In reply to Post #119
The squid hydro I had from baf was thin and the liver hydro was thick and creamy in consistency. This was last autumn.
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In reply to Post #119
The squid is thinner than most other hydros. Always has been. And is excellent. I've not used it from another company to be fair but always been super happy with the BAF one.
I've also moved over to AA baits primarily because they do smaller quantities of some ingredients (milks especially) and the cheaper delivery. I've also gone for some different liquids this time from other suppliers including Bacarel to see how they perform.
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In reply to Post #117
Not fish no, that was meant to be in my order but they sent krill instead. The last one i got was last year which was nice and thick. The liver is the only one I have 2 different bottles to compare to each other and it's night and day different from that order to this one
The squid one I got I've not had before but it's like water it's so thin
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In reply to Post #110
I swapped from baf ingredients to AA a while ago now and have been very happy with everything I get from them. Works out considerably cheaper and I get a litre of liquid free with every order, I’ve only used the fish so can’t comment on the others they sell.
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In reply to Post #106
Have you had fish hydro from them recently that is thin?
The squid is naturally thin and the liver is thinner than the fish but thicker than squid.
Their wheat hydro is active and super thick
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In reply to Post #113
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In reply to Post #114
I have got a fridge really but no room cos it's full of food.
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I've just bought 5 litre of active hydro wheat syrup and have not got a fridge. Is this stuff likely to blow open like csl or is there something I can do to calm it down . Or is there nothing to worry about ?
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In reply to Post #109
Indeed, there is machinery out there solving all these issues discussed. No excuses for the large companies.
Supplying constant quality is key nowadays.
I'm always surprised that companies find excuses for not providing equal quality batch to batch. Maybe I'm biased but the company I work for wouldn't have any customers left with the attitude of ccmoore replied to me.
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In reply to Post #111
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In reply to Post #110
I’ve had the fish hydro free from them a few times and it is very thick as said. Haven’t tried any other liquids from them but the fish hydro so couldn’t comment on any others.
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In reply to Post #108
Really? I've only had 1 bottle from them a few years ago and it was really thin and hardly had any smell to it.
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In reply to Post #101
Liquid rebottling on a regular product basis from IBC containers.
Surely the big companies must have this sussed out by now, and got machines to decant into smaller bottles.
Like a food mixer/cement mixer where it is a evenly mixed, then poured out into the smaller bottles.
Just a thought 
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In reply to Post #90
The AA hydro fish is really thick, it gloops out of the container rather than pours and is as far from runny as I can describe. They give a litre free with my order, I’ve had at least 10 bottles in the last year and they have all been the same.
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In reply to Post #103
I add it into the dough so want it thicker
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In reply to Post #101
But when not only is it far thinner, a different colour and smells completely different something isn't right! Honestly comparing the 2 it's like they aren't even attempting to make it the same. Plus, I have 3 different hydros and all are absolutely piss thin. Are they all from the very top of a new container, or are they just being made thinner?! The squid hydro is literally like water. The krill they sent me by mistake is the same, and the liver is only the tiniest fraction thicker than water. I've been using the hydros from baf for years and they have always been consistent up until this order . The liver I have from my last order you can put in a pot and tip upside down and it doesn't just pour out , the new stuff you could suck through a straw if you wanted it's that thin.
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In reply to Post #104
Ok ,  I think it was active to f in active, nearly had a brown ceiling
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In reply to Post #102
if its the acive one BAF sell then yes.
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In reply to Post #101
Calanus by its nature is actually very thin.
Whilst I sell hydros thick as katie price, for my own fishing, if I need to fairly quickly ramp up the attraction of baits I'll mix it with some water ot thin it down and aid the penetration of a bait, once soaked in the last layer will usually be uncut stuff.
Essentially unless you have a long period the thicker hydros only penetrate about 1mm into the bait, and as I prefer saturated baits ( using thin liquids to make a very very soft feed bait ) I incorporate hydros this way.
depends on the situation but a thick liquid isnt always the worst thing.
Like smurf says even 25kg containers can be a pain to get consistent, especially as, to keep pricing down, I fill bottles to order from dispensing caps. fortunately my back hasn't properly destroyed me yet so I csan still shake them somewhat. but for things like shows, where we might make up 500 250ml bottles for session packs, I decant about 10kg at a time and keep it agigtated whilst filling.
Lastly on the subject of home made hydros its fairly uncomplicated
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In reply to Post #101
had 5 litres of csl a few years ago and it nearly exploded, I released the pressure build up, is that normal
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In reply to Post #99
I used to buy various liquids (CSL, L030 etc) in 25l or bigger containers, this was 15 years ago. I then rebottled it to sell on. No matter how much you stir the container before you decant into 1/2 or 1l bottle it got thicker as you worked your way down the container. With the larger 1000l IBC containers that is probably worse, I can imagine what they said is the truth.
What are they supposed to do? Skim off and dump (at a huge cost for industrial waste) the top XX% and only sell the thicker stuff at the bottom? Who says thicker it better anyway? It's higher solids content but that might not be what attracts the carp 
I stopped selling bait well over 10 years ago. I now only make it for me and a few friends. I suffer with the variability of the products I sometimes buy just like the rest of you. I trust BAF (and CCMoore) to not be watering down the product so I use what they send, thick or thin, at the same weight in my boilie mixes.
I had some Calanus liquid last year. My pond fish really grub about for it like nothing else. That was very thick....everyone says its thin. So was my bottle 'duff' or just the very bottom of the bulk container  I do need to order some more soon as it's going in a bait I will be making again in August to pre-bait a local lake for the autumn fishing 
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In reply to Post #99
To be fair they've already said they'll refund me the order. They seem very interested to see the difference for themselves , although I'm sure they know full well it's different already
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In reply to Post #91
Hopefully they give in and admit their is a difference.
Had once a argue with ccmoore about the same. They claimed their products are consistent. Once pictures were shown they mentioned the fact that they are filling small bottle and depending on what part you get (top or bottom of their tank) there will be a difference. But they didn't offer any reimbursmet or so.
Final conclusion, last time I've both a liquid or powder from them.
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| | | Frenzy | | Posts: 11403 | | | [ MODERATOR ] | |
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In reply to Post #96
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In reply to Post #94
My understanding is that it's possible in a home setting, however if you want any consistency with the end product then you need specialist lab conditions and equipment.
I would trust Bacarel. Small range of quality liquids that many of the bait companies just repackage and possibly even dilute.
The shrimp is my favourite, but it stinks so would 100% change your current recipe profile. You will recognise the smell from other baits if you try it.
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In reply to Post #95
Single man so it doesnt matter lol.
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| | | Frenzy | | Posts: 11403 | | | [ MODERATOR ] | |
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In reply to Post #94
smelly and messy, wife wont thank you for it
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How easy is it to make your own hydros? Maybe that's the best way to keep things constant, just do my own
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In reply to Post #92
Yeah was thinking bacarel would likely be the place to go. Been using the baf stuff for years and don't really want to change my bait at all but seems like I have to. I did swap out and use tuna l zero by sticky for a couple of mixes but didn't have the same results so I will likely go for the salmon if I go there
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In reply to Post #90
What about the Bacarel Tuna or Salmon hydrolysed extracts? The tuna is very thick.
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Baf have replied and are still claiming nothing has changed with the consistency of the hydros. So I've told them I'll do a little vid comparing to send them when I'm home this evening to prove they aren't. So I'm definitely on the look out for a new supplier
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In reply to Post #88
Yeah I've seen that, Their fish hydro is watery though and good fish hydro shouldnt be.
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Does anyone knowif the BAF hyrdro wheat syrup very active ?
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In reply to Post #86
The AA baits liver hydro is very thick and 'livery'.
Also tried the calunus which was thin, but I believe that is the nature of that liquid. Can't say that I understood the hype with that one. I see on the website they are now selling it off cheap.
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In reply to Post #82
OK thanks
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In reply to Post #85
They have replied and said the consistency is the same as always. Ive replied saying I have bits of the last bottles to compare to and they clearly are nothing like the same. So I'll see what they say.
Anyone know where I can get decent fish and liver hydro from if this goes as I'm expecting?
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| | | Frenzy | | Posts: 11403 | | | [ MODERATOR ] | |
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In reply to Post #84
i wasnt suggesting they would
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In reply to Post #83
True. Wouldn't have thought that of baf though Tbh?
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| | | Frenzy | | Posts: 11403 | | | [ MODERATOR ] | |
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In reply to Post #82
or has been and then "watered" down
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In reply to Post #81
Not really no. Thinner means it hasn't been taken far enough and will be a "weaker" product.
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In reply to Post #78
Sorry for being nod , but wouldn't a thinner viscosity be better
Or would it leach out to quick
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In reply to Post #79
Was actually reading there sustainability declaraton not long ago, seems positive, but then thats the whole cargill group it doesnt break them down i.e eqos, purina, provimi etc
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| | | Frenzy | | Posts: 11403 | | | [ MODERATOR ] | |
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In reply to Post #78
You might need a contact at EWOS
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In reply to Post #77
It's awful mate. It's all so watery
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In reply to Post #76
Just ordered a few bits myself Ian, wish I'd seen your post first!
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Has anyone ordered from baf lately? I've just received 3 l of different hydros (1 wasn't even what I ordered), and all 3 are piss thin. I use the fish and the liver and usually they are nice and thick ,the squid I've received is like water too
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In reply to Post #74
That must of been hard work using a spud 
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In reply to Post #73
potatoes
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How did we ever catch carp before the next best thing
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In reply to Post #68
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In reply to Post #67
Different liquids provide different properties vinnie, but in general I lean towards marine extracts, and sugary liquids
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In reply to Post #67
I use their HYDROLYSED FISH EXTRACT in all my baits now. I used it to replace their Betastim liquid as I add Betaine powder anyway. Results have been pretty good since switching so I think I’m gonna stick with it.
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In reply to Post #68
Always fancied the fermented chilli from BAF, has anyone tried it?
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In reply to Post #66
These things are ferments. The whole idea of a Robin Red hydrolysate is absurd.
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In reply to Post #66
What is the best one that baf do?
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In reply to Post #63
They call everything a hydro these days, originally it was a shortening of hydrolysate but not it means anything vaguely wet lol
You see it everywhere now, Robin red hydro, sweet corn hydro, it doesn’t really any longer reflect that a product has gone through hydrolysis and it’s annoying because cheap ***** is passed off as good *****
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In reply to Post #64
Doesn't have to be a hydro to be good!
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In reply to Post #63
My bad, your right. I thought they were all hydros as I was scrolling down them and that was in the list, appears it was in the ‘liquids’ section. Sure it will be fine anyway
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In reply to Post #61
Liquid belachan is not a hydro.
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In reply to Post #61
There is quite a few variants of that out there. To be honest you’re better off getting the soft shrimp paste ( either Jared of bacarel ) and whisking it into some normal hydro. I much prefer the block but it’s harder to keep in solution
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In reply to Post #60
It’s the liquid belechan, god knows if it’s meant to be like that or not. Just seems really watery
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One thing to bear in mind is different hydros have different consistency’s. Tina for example is very stick and sticky, shrimp very thick but not sticky, calanus naturally quite thin,liver thick and almost creamy etc
Which one was it Vinnie? If it’s a really watery krill for example what it COULD be is they aren’t taking there hydros past a certain concentration point? So will be more watery?
Either way send them a video and complain and you’ll probably get looked after, sorry to hear you’ve had a bad experience mate.
You’re right local to me happy to gift you a little bit of each hydro to have reference material when you order from people )
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In reply to Post #55
Got some from BAF and it’s like mainly water consistency
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In reply to Post #55
I bet you it’ll happen when milks now prices are sky high, some unscrupulous suppliers will no doubt cut the Caseins with something like lamlac. Easy to distinguish if you know what to look for but it’ll probably happy as milks are set to be 400 a sack trade by the end of tge year
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With a little thought and planning homemade hydros aren't that hard to do. If using papain and bromelain then pH is pretty much ok around 7. A blender, a thermostatic baby bottle warmer and bottle, water and enzymes are all thats needed. Granted youll only be able to do smallish amounts in 1 bottle but it's pretty quick so over a few days you can amass a litre or so. It only gets a bit more tricky if you want to add pepsin, trypsin which do require pH change.edit, you'll obviously need substrate blended to a slurry and mixed with the water around 50/50 will work well
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In reply to Post #47
Sorry I shouldnt laugh
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In reply to Post #53
A lot of firms add 10-15% water
Can echo that, had a few myself over the years 
My advice, try and buy direct from the manufacturer as possible or the next link in the supply chain, probably no different to drugs, cut and cut and cut!
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In reply to Post #51
not so sure about that, its not a violent reaction you just need to check the temperature and PH and keep it going until you're satisfied its done. there are food warmers and blanket warmers on the market that'll keep a small space warm enough...
he warned though its a potent exercise and you will lose friends haha
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In reply to Post #49
You hydrolyse something via hydrolysis, you create a specific environment and add enzymes to a mixture of your chosen material and water.
The length of time, temperature, PH, water to material ratio etc all have a bearing on the finished product.
As a small bait firm Im lucky enough to have contacts and be able to order very fresh hydrolysates in some case direct from manufacturer.
I typically use up about 60-75% of it in the baits, the rest I sell on, this ensures stock rotation and keeps costs down.
I sell some blends for example, as individual products but always a blend of true hydros and not watered down at all. some blends of oils, spices, hydros etc are worded and marketed as such as and when I sell them.
A lot of firms add 10-15% water and this thins it down and increases profit margins and consumers are none the wiser. its completely unpoliced so its down to the integrity of the purveyor.
I have made quite a few hydros in my time, Im lucky enough to have an old service trolley fro ma caterers with temp control so in theory could do about 100l at a time, but im no where near as good as the people who do it for a living for the feed industry by the several tonne batches.
A lot of the "hydros" you see on facebook are glycerine, dye and flavour, when challenged they claim "hydro" isnt a technical term so doing nothing wrong.....alright lol.
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In reply to Post #51
In addition, this is if you want to use a bought powder and hydrolyse it further.
In industry they don't start from powder, e.g fish hydrolysates start from fish wastes...
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In reply to Post #50
I cannot imagine that is an easy task without specialist equipment. Or you could just buy they from BAF or similar.
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In reply to Post #49
Mix them up with water, add enzymes en control the pH and temperature during the hydrolyzes.
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| | | Frenzy | | Posts: 11403 | | | [ MODERATOR ] | |
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In reply to Post #41
a question
so how to do hydrolyse your ingredients into liquids to use of ease being a small bait firm?
genuine question
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In reply to Post #44
you'll never see a fish react as positively to a flavouring as a hydro, Ive tried, by scandi friend has tried, and people in the aquaculture industry have tried
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In reply to Post #46
A lovely dipped pva stocking came off the hook, onto my head and down my shoulder while casting, certainly something I’ve never managed before, glad it’s only a day session, it stinks to high heaven.
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In reply to Post #45
Ok I’ll bite how did you get it in your hair?
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Do not get canalus liquid in your hair. Glad the lake I’m fishing is a lovely clear gravel pit, wouldn’t fancy having to wash that out in a mud puddle.
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In reply to Post #41
We will have to hopefully agree to differ on the hydros, on the flavours I'm afraid I'm too old now to worry about the science of flavours, some work really well, some are a waste of time and most are average at best. The base of the flavour is no guide to its effectiveness. I've found a few over the last 40 years and stick with these, unfortunately many are no longer available so the list gets smaller as does my stock of them. But I have found a few current ones to be promising.
I'm intrigued by your comment on peptides
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In reply to Post #1
They are good and available from non-carp companies, been around for many years.
The uses really are whatever you want, I add them to particles, my hook baits, over free bait, I soaked leadcore & leads in them, used them neat etc.
Cheap as well.
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In reply to Post #39
Hydro wheat is very dense, liver and some fish ones are similar but not quite as heavy. Even cheaper of course is Molasses, not a Hydro but a very dense liquid and certainly very useful.
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In reply to Post #38
You need to fish more with them Christian, a lot of my customers are very successful short session anglers, and the two that I would say are the best among them spend atleast as much on liquids as they do boilies, nearly always hydros too. I’d say the flavour is largely to catch the angler in my experience, unless you know the make up of the flavour and that it won’t change how can you possibly rely on it for consistency? Plus then there’s subgroups, nature identical, natural, synthetic, extracts, concentrates, esters etc Where as a hydrolysis of shrimp, or certain livers, meats, vegetables etc is exactly that. I think there is more merit in isolating the compounds in flavours
I think people are guilt of not using them enough either, I think the more you put in the better when it comes to adding to boilies.
Peptides are interesting 😏
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In reply to Post #38
You're not in a minority of one, I'll make that 2. I've mentioned it before that I firmly believe that the organic compounds within hydros etc are what gives them an edge. Aa's do play a part but the taste/palatability is king imho. Surely if it was just about ffaa then we could just add them in powdered form for instant attraction but it won't work as well as hydro...can only be down to taste.
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In reply to Post #15
What´s the heaviest hydro going ?
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In reply to Post #37
I agree that hydros, I am starting to prefer powder but also liquid, are beneficial for feed intake and growth, but I think I might be in a minority of one in thinking this is because they enhance the taste/palability rather than adding attraction of our baits.
When I look at why these products are used in our food and in the pet and animal food industry it is very definitely for increasing palability. Look at vecon or Braggs aminos, both hydrolysed vegetable protein and used to add taste to our foods.
Breaking down protein rich ingredients by hydrolosis makes them more nutritionally available and will help growth but from the (very) few data sheets I have seen very few free aminos are released, peptides yes, free aminos no. I would be very happy to hear that peptides also have attraction properties but I cannot remember anyone ever saying so. Of course the small amount of free aminos might be enough but that is not my experience.
They are obviously very worthwhile ingredients but I remain to be convinced they are of any great value for short term attraction.
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In reply to Post #36
If they would mention the average Dalton of the proteins/peptides one would be already much wiser. But I assume they will sell less hydros.
Nevertheless, many scientific papers discussing hydros and extracts find that they are benificia' towards feed intake and growth.
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In reply to Post #35
You’re correct, further work is needed but was more informing him the data exists to be able to make an educated choice with regards to hydrolysates ?
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In reply to Post #33
Do the Datasheets specify the amount of 'free' amino acids?
I thought they just specify the amino content regardless of being a 'free' or bond amino acid
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In reply to Post #27
Either Calanus or one of two I’m keeping to myself currently, non marine though.
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In reply to Post #29
The data is avaliable for every hydro direct from manufacturer. Several data sheets exist for the same products.
With regards to the dried hydros, if pure, every bit as valid as liquid ones.
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In reply to Post #28
What kind of shelf life are you guys getting and how do you know if it’s gone? I keep in cool garage (no fridge) but look at them and think mmmm shall I
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In reply to Post #26
Pure Calanus Liquid mixed with minamino
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In reply to Post #28
From a quick google it seems aabaits are the cheapest I can find, I haven’t dedicated my life to looking.
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In reply to Post #25
Nick, this is the bit I don't get, you say hydros are full of feeding triggers and free aminos, okay, I am not convinced about the free aminos, peptides yes free aminos... I'd like to see the data sheets to be convinced. I do agree about feeding triggers though but they are also in the powdered versions so adding a liquid version is just adding more but at a lesser concentration.
If free aminos are important, and personally I think they are, then adding an ingredient like Keramine HD will add far more free aminos than any Hydro would.
Dropping flavours is okay in a campaign bait but try doing it in a ball of semo/Soya and see the effect. As a short term (24 hours) attractor a good flavour is hard to beat so why not add it to every bait.
I do note that in another post you mention (and I agree) that the addition of minamino made a significant difference, I'm not surprised minamino is a flavoured syrup with a few free amino acids.
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In reply to Post #27
Either fish or liver. The calanus looks to be good and I'll probably source some when I'm running out to have a play about with, although the only local supply I can find is from a bait company which labels it as "pure" but then list ingredients including colours and flavours on the bottle so it's clearly not pure at all
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If you could only use one hydro that’s available now, which would you go for ?
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In reply to Post #19
You can either make you own, or buy them, for consistency, bought is good. I weigh all of mine for extra consistency.
Calanus has had the strongest reaction I've seen from a marine hydrolysate on fish and is at its best at around 15g plus per egg in boilie mixes and then 50g soaked into freebies.
Symbiotically it seems to work very well with minamino, although I add this as a soak afterwards.
if rolling a six egg (300g) mix then
300g whole egg
90g calanus
then soak the finished boilies in a 50-50 mix of calanus and minamino for a few hours before freezing.
others all work, but given choice for me its the cal currenly
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In reply to Post #15
Hydros are densely packed with soluble feeding triggers and free aminos, they are, without shadow of a doubt, the best liquid you can put in a boilie.
Whether you go by the science papers or the sheer volume of carp caught using them, or the bait companies promoting them ( there is more money to be made in flavours ) its VERY clear.
I seriously suggest you try eliminating all artificial flavours from a boilie, a trying different hydrolysates, you'll be surprised.
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In reply to Post #22
Razzle readers wives was my go to grot mag in the early 90’s ..
Sometimes I would find the odd one in a bush .. discarded
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In reply to Post #22
Hope they haven’t got access to my incognito search history….
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In reply to Post #21
They watch people. You know last week when you popped into the newsagents for a copy of Razzle Readers Wives and that woman gave you a funny look. She works for BAF that’s why she was watching.
They are always watching.
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In reply to Post #20
For some reason I keep getting fb adverts for BAF, for hydros, no idea how their targeted adverts read my mind….
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In reply to Post #19
I use 2 combined. And get them from British aquafeeds.
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So now most of us have come to the conclusion that hydros are good, where is best to source them from. Can/is it worth mixing two different types, are some types better than others?
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In reply to Post #17
I can think of one person that "knows" it all......
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In reply to Post #16
That's what makes this game so interesting none of us have all the answers and no two experiences are ever the same.
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In reply to Post #15
Fair enough mate. By the sounds of it we have completely opposing ideas when it comes to liquid attraction. I really do believe hydros have bags of attraction,whereas you well know my thoughts on flavours. By the sounds of it both work pretty well so who really knows?!
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In reply to Post #12
My boilies have powdered hydrolysed ingredients, I think they increase or intensify the taste of a boilie and of course they help with nutritional availability to the fish, but attraction, I'm not convinced. Depending on the bait, I can easily add free aminos or sugars to a bait if I think its necessary, usually just for short/medium term attraction and I have a small number of flavours that provide the initial attraction/investigation.
Like you I add Spices to nearly every bait I make, I think carp like the taste of them.
I add liquid hydros to pellets and groundbait mainly to increase their weight to reduce spread in deep water and it has the benefit of getting the taste of my bait into the water but that is a side benefit if I'm honest.
If I've made a good bait one sign I see is that the fish prefer my boilies to anything else, be that pellets, particles or alternative hookbaits. I've made enough poor or average bait to see the signs, pva bags of pellet proving better than stringers/bags of boilies, when I do get it right the opposite is the case and matching hookbaits completely outfish alternatives..whether I have a good or bad bait I haven't found glugging the free bait makes any difference to my catches, as someone said earlier it just cloaks the natural attraction from the boilie.
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In reply to Post #13
You can add them to anything. I’ve started putting them on cornflakes and they make a superb addition to speciality coffees.
For milks how about trying the BAF peanut hydro ?
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Is it possible to add hydros to 100% milk protein baits , if so what ones would be suitable ?
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In reply to Post #11
Absolutely they do mate. 100% . Dont ask me the science behind it as I've no clue or interest in that as you know, but what I do know is my baits are so so much better with a good dose of hydro in them than without. Tbh I don't really glug or soak my baits at all and rely on what I put in them and they really do work. A couple of good hydros mixed with a couple of good spices is deadly.
Can I ask why you are them to pellets and groundbait but not boilies? As pellets and groundbait have their own attraction aswell ? Probably moreso than boilies in a lot of cases
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In reply to Post #8
Are you sure Hydro liquids, and that is a broad term I know, actually act as attractors, I am far from convinced on a boilie they add a thing extra, I do add them to pellets and groundbait but not boilies, they have there own attraction.
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In reply to Post #9
I cover my hook link and lead in Hydro liquid if I’m using mesh bags as it gets a lot of attraction in water columns if I’m using a pva bag I coat the bag in it it also slows down the melting of bag if I’m in deeper water
It gives me confidence this way maybe increase my chances of a bite
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In reply to Post #7
Hydros on the inside and hydros soaked onto the surface. Best of both worlds.
Bear in mind that the cooking process affects some of the goodness of the hydrolysates so having them both inside and soaking a bait is good.
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In reply to Post #7
What you are doing is adding attraction. It's nothing to do with flavour at that point. And lots of baits don't actually have flavours as such. It's irrelevant what the bait tastes like to them if they don't eat it in the first place...
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So I pick a boilie that boasts hydro content and a flavour profile that’s taken months if not longer to create….then I smother it in a fish hydro for example. Flavour profile obliterated surely?
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In reply to Post #4
I agree - I'm currently reducing the eggs in my mix and making up the extra liquid with hydroslates and extracts. Softer baits but great for shorter sessions.
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I use hydrolysed products a lot, but I am curious why people use them, are you looking to add attraction, taste or nutrition to your mix, also I do wonder what liquid hydros bring to a mix that powders don't other than a lot of preservatives. Glugging yes I can understand but within a mix, not so sure.
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In reply to Post #1
Its money for one of the most efficient ways to boost virtually any baits effectiveness.
hydros are the absolutely king of the wet ingredients ( and the powdered ones are also awesome ) I'd never make a bait without a heavy hydro content, mixed with fresh eggs on a decent base mix you really arent going to ever go wrong. you'd have to do a significant amount to ruin the bait, like not cast it out lol
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In reply to Post #1
Definitely worth using in liquid and powdered form.
You could try injecting the liquid into solid bags. Also give some freebies a light dousing in the liquid hydro and then coat with powdered. Or air dry freebies and then rehydrate with a thinned down hydro. You could try making a stick mix up with say a fish hydro, a bit of lt94, maybe some crumb or a bird food, make it up really sloppy the day before and let the liquids really soak in.
Just a few ideas.
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In reply to Post #1
I glug my pva bags in hydro liquid before I put a bag out as it gives me confidence there’s attraction there to pull them to it especially when I’m fishing stretches of canal that are miles from locks,I also keep any pop bottles and if I bait an area up on a canal that doesn’t see many people then I put holes in the top and fill it with hydro liquids i then either weigh it down with string and a heavy lead to keep it in place or drop a stone inside to keep it up side down so all the liquids drip out onto the bottom,also I try and make sure it’s dropped into a hole in the weed so I can lift it out after and it also doesn’t get blown away.
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Are these hydros I’m seeing all the time really all that and how would one go about using them? Or is it money for old rope?
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Bait