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 #65 17 Jan 2022 at 4.48pm | |  |   |
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In reply to Post #63
he refers to potassium sorbate, glycerine and MPG but I've had no luck finding the papers he quoted.
This is the head of faculty for aquatic ecology, whom dave says is informed on the subject...
gerhard.herndl@univie.ac.at
if you want to explore it maybe worth an email
Sorry I can't assist further...
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#64 17 Jan 2022 at 3.44pm | | | |
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In reply to Post #1
Buy with confidence baitworks shelf lifes are very good 👍 I've now converted over to these full time.
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#63 17 Jan 2022 at 3.28pm | | | |
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In reply to Post #62
I'm pretty sure that Dave talks about Potassium Sorbate being bad for carp in the Korda poddy but happy to be corrected on that
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#62 17 Jan 2022 at 2.13pm | | | |
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In reply to Post #61
I can't find the papers Dave refers to, I have requested a peer look into his archives for me as I'm not familier with the exact studies he mentions.
As for it not being the case....it is. I talked regularly back then with a few contacts in the factory and we used to use the same suppliers for some items.
the shelf life baits that came just before it, where preserved using the same methods, last pack of scopex squid I saw, as key is discontinued, listed the e nunmbers 202 and 1520 ( pot sorb and monopropylene glycol )
there was zilch revolutionary in the way nahs preserved their baits, although they did lie about it once saying the only difference was a two day air dry, then later added "only human grade preservatives: were also included lol .
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#61 17 Jan 2022 at 9.22am | | | |
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In reply to Post #51
That is definitely not the case. I had two different baits from Nash, both in shelflife and stabilised and was asked to see how they compared in a fishing situation. Same base mixes, different preservation used.
I think I'm in saying that the 'stabilsed' thing was the result of finding a way to preserve The Key, whilst maintaining its effectiveness. Where Nash are concerned shelflife and stabilised are not exactly the same thing/method.
As mentioned by Bluebeat I'd be really interested to know what ingredients Dave Moore was referring to? I know that back in the 90's we were told that potassium sorbate wasn't good for the carps digestive system. No idea if that's right or wrong?
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#60 17 Jan 2022 at 9.03am | | | |
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In reply to Post #34
I was wondering exactly the same.
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#59 15 Jan 2022 at 10.41am | | | |
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In reply to Post #57
Nicely explained Mozzi 
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#58 15 Jan 2022 at 6.54am | | | |
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Stabilised and shelf life to me is the same thing. They have also got far better, when I rolled bait I’d use the exact same basemix. But just use a small amount of sorbate. These were also air dried for around 6-8 hours longer. They’d happily keep for 12-16 weeks. and broke down around 4-8 hours longer than the freezer version.
24 hours and a coot wouldn’t pick one up whole.
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#57 15 Jan 2022 at 6.24am | | | |
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In reply to Post #56
Im sorry but what most people think of shelf lifes is the "version of the bait that doesn't need freezing".
Stabilised are shelf life. thats it.
When referring to the old shelf lifes of different recipes this was in a past tense. its just not done anymore. there is SO many ways to preserve normal bait its actually easier to do that.
no company is going to make a different base mix ( more labour work ) when you can just incorporate preservatives into what you have.
MPG, potassium sorbate, glycerine, salt, egg powder, all effect the length of time it takes for things to degrade. it is using a combination of some of the aforementioned that in the correct set of circumstances prolongs the bait to have a usable life.
a lot of bait nowadays is the same as freezer except instead of fresh egg its egg powder, reconstituted partly with water partly with MPG.
Potassium sorbate is a more reliable method in my experience, it also means more of your wet mix can be "re devoted" to hydrolysates and other liquid additives, and still use real eggs ( I only use free range and the powder is far more expensive that the fresh egg ).
Speaking to some of the factory lads, and bait makers in general, people are using a LOT of preservative in these stabilised, far more than necessary. ( although, still a small amount as a component to the mix ), and a few of them certainly wouldn't be slung in the premium category in the first place lol.
So just to finish, regardless of what things should or shouldn't be, stabilised has replaced the word shelf life as opposed to having a separate definition. what you're referring to was always called "semi preserved" back in the day and was basically 10% MPG and 10% vegetable glycerine in the liquid mix to eek baits out for a few days longer ( up to a month ).
As i alluded the term came out firstly in bait circles from Nash when they made the normal base mix shelf life.
Its splitting hairs really but I don't like the thought of people thinking they're invariably receiving something of higher quality just because it says shelf life, and that shelf life means it's a different mix.
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#56 15 Jan 2022 at 5.48am | | | |
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In reply to Post #55
No, you aren’t reading it properly.
Stabilised should just mean it won’t go off as quickly - think of it like bags of salads, they are pretty “stable” until the bag is opened, but then go off.
What most people think of as shelf life’s can pretty much last forever.
Decent bait companies “shelf life’s” are the same bait with as little preservative as they can get away with - stabilised
A lot of other shelf life’s are (as you say) a completely different bait to the freezer version, just the same smell. And don’t break down.
Semantics, etc
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#55 14 Jan 2022 at 11.51pm | | | |
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In reply to Post #53
You’ve virtually mimicked the post I made.
You can differentiate between generations of preserved baits but they are preserved. Stabilised, preserved, shelf life, all mean the same thing.
Of course the ham is preserved, that’s why it’s stabilised.,
You preserve something by stabilising it to give it a shelf life 😂
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#54 14 Jan 2022 at 11.47pm | | | |
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#53 14 Jan 2022 at 1.09pm | |  2 | |
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In reply to Post #51
That’s not always the case though - some companies shelf life’s are the same flavours, but a completely different base mix to the “stabilised” baits. As per the example you gave. A shelf life that is a soya/semo/icing sugar/bit of bird food plus glycerine and sorbate is a different beast to a “proper” bait that has been “stabilised” with glycerine and sorbate (if that’s what they used)
Some companies freezer baits have loads of preservatives in them, which make them much slower to break down, even in water
“Stabilised” baits tend to stay fresh if there is a lack of heat and moisture, the minute water is introduced they act almost as if an un-stabilised, fresh bait.
Air drying is a form of stabilising/preservation. Parma ham is stabilised, or as everyone in the general public would call it preserved. But it’s only preserved in a specific atmosphere.
You can’t say that stabilised and shelf life is exactly the same……..
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#52 14 Jan 2022 at 1.08pm | | | |
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In reply to Post #51
There was a thread on here a good couple of years ago that I remember , and someone from within the bait world said that shelf life were baits with potassium sorbate i( or whatever else is used)ncorporated into them to make the baits last whereas stabilized were dipped into glycerine and sugar or something like that iirc, which basically washed off when immersed and therefore stops the preservation. Is that not true then?
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#51 14 Jan 2022 at 11.50am | | | |
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In reply to Post #50
Stabilised and shelf life are exactly the same. No matter how well you preserve something you’re preserving it to a specific set of circumstances and once those change so does the product, massively in terms of when water is introduced. Even the absolute dogs body of baits will go off as lakes and rivers are filled with life that just attacks it.
You somewhat prevent immediately breakdown with things like hardeners and fairly inert ingredients - hence hookbaits can last a few days on the hair - but fundamentally the fresh food ingredients are decomposing. Hence a pop up left on a glass of water for a couple of weeks will smell mankey.
Stabilised was just a new sell word from nash when they switched to preserving the baits as everyone else did ( prior to this they where different baits entirely with only the eliquid attractors remaining ) the original scopex squid shelflife baits where bright orange for example and the bait brown.
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#50 14 Jan 2022 at 10.45am | | 1 | |
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In reply to Post #49
This is where there’s a difference between “stabilised” and “shelf life”
Stabilised are fine until they come into contact with heat and water, shelf life last forever whatever!
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#49 14 Jan 2022 at 10.23am | | | |
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In reply to Post #1
I use both frozen and shelfies from BW and am a huge fan of both. Thinking of switching to shelfies only.
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#48 12 Jan 2022 at 9.41pm | | | |
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In reply to Post #40
I don’t think you realised it stops doing it’s job once in water so was informing you, it was quite obvious from your other posts you’d assumed preservatives have ill effects on bait 👍🏼
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#47 12 Jan 2022 at 5.55pm | | | |
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I put one of each of the baitworks SL Baits in a glass, AH was broken down / falling apart within 18hrs the other just made it to 24hrs and that was without touching them. The AH was easily breakable in my fingers after 12 hrs and if roach etc were trying to eat it im sure they would have had no trouble what so ever......
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#46 12 Jan 2022 at 1.55pm | | | |
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Pretty sure Baitworks mentions somewhere it is a short term preservative possibly on the bags cannot remember now where I read it it's been a while since I used them.
Bait threads always brings out the best in people on here. 
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#45 12 Jan 2022 at 1.28pm | | 1 | |
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In reply to Post #41
That's because a lot of the freezer baits have preservative in them. Jay Rider (A-Baits and ex-Nash) mentioned this - (Big) Bait co makes bait, dries it, freezes it. 3 days old already. Shop orders a week later, bait is packed, thaws out whilst being sent to shop. Then waits in shop to be put in the freezer. Refreezes when it is at shop, shop sells, sends to customer, bait thaws, etc - a "fresh" baits could've been out of the freezer for a week before anyone gets it (and worse, is permanently moist from thawing/freezing). They want to stop people getting mouldy freezer bait.
That's why it's better to get it direct from companies that roll and send out after it's dried. The freezerbait's I use won't stay on the hair for more than 8hrs or so......
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#44 12 Jan 2022 at 9.29am | | | |
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In reply to Post #43
Glad I roll my own then if that's actually the case
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#43 12 Jan 2022 at 8.42am | | | |
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In reply to Post #42
In the way that they dont break down any better than good shelfis.
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#42 12 Jan 2022 at 8.07am | | 1 | |
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In reply to Post #41
In what way?
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#41 12 Jan 2022 at 7.31am | | | |
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In reply to Post #40
ip put top 10 sold frozen boilies in uk in a bucket of water and see how they break down... you would be very surprised...
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#40 12 Jan 2022 at 6.09am | | | |
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In reply to Post #37
Yeah I do realise what a preservatives job is nick. I was asking matey about his versatility comment because he made it sound as though there was some other reason for saying that other than the obvious that they last longer, which there isn't.
I've never seen a shelf life that breaks down anywhere near that quickly so if you really can do that then fair play to you. It's still too slow for my angling and it wouldn't benefit me in any way to use them but each to their own
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#39 12 Jan 2022 at 4.50am | | | |
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In reply to Post #1
on a side note it would be interesting to know what Bait works use instead of fresh or powdered Eggs, anyone know? Im lead to believe Mark doesn't use them as he thinks there are better options out there,
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#38 12 Jan 2022 at 1.25am | | | |
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In reply to Post #33
The potassium sorbate and citric acid usually preserve it enough on their own, the MPG is more due to the fact that you want to keep it soft.
Higher levels are fine, it depends on the stability of the ingredients we preserve to be fair.
Sea snails for example are a night mare to preserve in a bait, you essentially need to spray them down in mpg the day before and hope for the bets but 2-3 months is a result.
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#37 12 Jan 2022 at 1.22am | | | |
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In reply to Post #35
I can make baits with modenr preservatives that'll sit happily in a bag for a year, yet break down within 3/5 days. sooner if I want but thats by the by.
What you need to realise is a preservatives job is to stabilise and prevent decomposition in a selected atmosphere, in baits case, a minimal oxygen / sealed bag environment with temperature fluctuations. it will not keep baits preserved once in the water.
Much in the same way that a tablespoon full of water into any pot of pop ups will cause them to decay over a few weeks.
In terms of versatility, of course its more versatile, by its very nature of not needing to be babysat.
You can keep some in the car, you can decide once at the lake to fish singles and not suffer bait degradation during the session, you can re seal the bag and keep them for a longer period etc.
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#36 11 Jan 2022 at 7.33pm | | 1 | |
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In reply to Post #35
You know what, I'm going to back out of this conversation 👍
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#35 11 Jan 2022 at 6.06pm | | | |
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In reply to Post #32
How long are you talking though? Your average carpers long session is a week , 2 tops. And you don't need preservatives for that, even in the height of summer. I don't get the versatility comment either? Other than lasting longer, what makes them more versatile that fresh baits? Imo if anything preserving baits can work against you. I like mine to go soft and be breaking down after hours and days, not sitting on the lakebed for weeks and months( except hookbaits of course)
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#34 11 Jan 2022 at 5.42pm | | | |
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Which preservative was Dave Moore talking about in his Korda podcast? He seemed to be under the impression that it inhibits the ability for the carp to process the baits and obtain the nutrients during digestion. Or something along those lines?
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#33 11 Jan 2022 at 4.21pm | | | |
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In reply to Post #15
30 ml? That's really low. Baitmakers in europe don't blink at 100-200 ml, plus the acid and ps. I guess that's where their reputation in the uk comes from 
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#32 11 Jan 2022 at 4.17pm | | | |
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In reply to Post #31
The way I look at it, using preserved baits is another tool in your armoury. They're very good for longer sessions, especially so in the heights of summer. Baitworks ones have been great so far.
The next time I go full wollop and do a big batch of my own baits, I think I'll have a go at doing some preserved baits, the versatility really interests me.
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#31 11 Jan 2022 at 1.37pm | | | |
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In reply to Post #30
Can't see the point of playing with preservation when I don't need to preserve baits though? Plus I don't want my baits lasting Tbh, I've got them so they are little more than mush after 18 or so hours under water
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#30 11 Jan 2022 at 1.05pm | | | |
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In reply to Post #27
I know Baker goes on about fresh, I've not seen it make any difference to be fair. Everything when it comes to catch a carp, there's just so many variables. Someone I know did very well on black squares of plastic as a hookbait and did very well on a well known water that it's over stocked with practically hardly any free offerings; the water in question is 140 acres.
Could we'll be worth playing around with preservatives?
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#29 11 Jan 2022 at 12.44pm | | | |
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In reply to Post #1
Used the Atlantic Heat in shelf-life a few years ago, it was very effective for me, soft but that's what I wanted from my bait, haven't used the fresh/freezer bait so can't say what differences there is.
There was a few comments recently about a possible drop in quality/mix?
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#28 11 Jan 2022 at 9.13am | | 1 | |
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In reply to Post #27
I prefer to do the same when I can.
My point was just that the better preserved baits of today is far from those of yore and research show that the right levels do no harm. I don't say science have all the answers but with preservatives it important to find the right levels. When highly educated people have spent a lot of time researching it I believe it can only be a good thing to learn from their findings and thus avoid throwing something in the lake that might harm the fish.
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#27 11 Jan 2022 at 8.31am | | | |
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In reply to Post #21
I was just interested to know Viking, I don't preserve my own baits . I don't actually freeze them dithers I like to make fresh for each session to make sure they are in tip top condition every time
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| | | Karlos | | Posts: 13059 |  | | [ MODERATOR ] | |
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#26 11 Jan 2022 at 1.03am | | 2 | |
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In reply to Post #25
Thanks for bringing the topic back on track TeeCee.
Why is it every bait thread has to get personal?
Temporary bans (or permanent if the user prefers) for anyone getting 1-on-1 (or the even more pathetic multiple-on-1 attacks)
I am not taking sides here, I don't WANT to kick anyone off...just saying this cock-swinging has been left and isn't going away, so argumentative users will be removed until it stops.
Thanks,
Karlos
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#25 10 Jan 2022 at 9.50pm | | | |
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In reply to Post #19
You know what mate, it's something l like about is it being soft. So much easier to mush up into a big gloop of mish-mashed bits and bobs. Definitely buy their hardened hookbaits, that's a must 👍
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#22 10 Jan 2022 at 8.24pm | | | |
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In reply to Post #20
Of course you have🤣
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#21 10 Jan 2022 at 8.12pm | | | |
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In reply to Post #18
Maybe you should try tinkering with it?
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#20 10 Jan 2022 at 8.05pm | | | |
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In reply to Post #18
This is why there is so many things you have no experience of. You push away from what facts and science present. I’ve been warned against responding to you by well thought of people on this forum as aparently you troll people so this is good bye
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#19 10 Jan 2022 at 7.58pm | | | |
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I purchased some in their deal last year and I totally agree with Wayne,this bait is very soft so get some hard baits.
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#18 10 Jan 2022 at 7.43pm | | | |
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#17 10 Jan 2022 at 7.29pm | | | |
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In reply to Post #16
I believe Potassium sorbate is legal in feed stuff for all animals. I also believe there is studies showing that potassium sorbate in the levels suggested and more can enhance growth.
The wonders of science eh?
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#16 10 Jan 2022 at 7.03pm | | | |
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In reply to Post #12
Not at all nick It was a genuine question as you seem very certain ,that's all. Are there no other options that may be used? I've not anything shelf life or used preservatives in my own baits for decades and likely never will but it's always handy to pick up info just incase
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#15 10 Jan 2022 at 6.35pm | | 1 | |
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In reply to Post #14
The only time you can really get away with it is loading the bait with saturation levels of MPG and using egg powder, which to me is a vastly different end product to the original.
I’ve never noticed a difference in catch rates with pot sorb added. I don’t usually sell shelf life but I experiment with all the ingredients I can access.
It has a symbiotic effect when used with citric acid, a gram of pot sorb and five of citric, maybe 30ml MPG per kilo and you’ll have a bait to last a year at least!
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#14 10 Jan 2022 at 6.29pm | | | |
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In reply to Post #13
I won't name the company but I know the bait I buy has it in. I don't think it has any adverse effects and use the bait with confidence. Baits that are "active" are a different entity, and need to be freezer only as far as I'm aware.
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#13 10 Jan 2022 at 6.23pm | | | |
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In reply to Post #9
On the contrary my friend it’s one of the best to use. Any company that produces shelf life’s virtually identical to freezer baits will be using it, it’s extremely effective at low doses and food safe, it’s in a hell of a lot of the stuff we eat and drink, certainly I’d think, in this country, if you drink fizzy drink, beer, or eat a sandwich or pastie, cake, virtually anything you haven’t grown yourself I reckon has a good 25% chance of having the stuff in it.
Dependant on the natural stability of the rest of the mix this additive can be used at anything from .5 to 3 g per kilo on average.
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#12 10 Jan 2022 at 6.19pm | | 1 | |
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In reply to Post #6
Because they’re food safe, widely available, of decent value and I speak to absolutely loads of fellow producers, why nit pick on another thread just to start arguments?
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#11 10 Jan 2022 at 6.13pm | | | |
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In reply to Post #9
Lots of bait makers use it. That's not the same as saying all bait makers use it.
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#10 10 Jan 2022 at 3.05pm | | | |
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In reply to Post #9
Think again, it appears to be in every bottle of cordial?
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In reply to Post #4
I thought that potassium sorbate was one of the things considered a no-no nowadays?
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#8 10 Jan 2022 at 12.12pm | | | |
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In reply to Post #5
Yes the bag I opened started to go abit white after about 10 days or so
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#7 10 Jan 2022 at 11.55am | | | |
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I use baitworks shelf life all the time now.
I started using them a few years ago when they were out of freezer baits when I went in to collect.
They last for ages (I’ve got some in garage that are nearly a year old and they are fine)
I’m no expert but I can’t tell the difference between their shelf life and freezer and seem to catch just as many fish
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#6 10 Jan 2022 at 11.04am | | | |
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In reply to Post #4
How do you know "all reputable sellers use it"? You can't possibly know what all bait companies use, or if there are alternatives which you don't know about.
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#5 10 Jan 2022 at 10.30am | | | |
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In reply to Post #3
When you say go off in 10 days is that once you’ve opened the bag?
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#4 10 Jan 2022 at 6.47am | | 1 | |
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In reply to Post #2
I’d suggest 99% of the shelf life’s available today are preserved with a combination of potassium sorbate and mono propylene glycol.
The MPG is a humectant and keeps baits looking moist. It’s how pva friendly particle is made. Cooked, spread out whilst hot to maximise how much the steam can evaporate then coated in MPG and left for a day or two. I believe pva friendly tigers are reheated once dry then a small amount applied as they’re very pourous.
Tge potassium sorbate is a mould inhibitor and does what it says on the tin, around a gram or two per kilo and an extra few hours drying compared to feed bait which is dried around 4-8 hours commercially.
There is nothing wrong with either of these ingredients unless you want to produce “active” baits, as I say all reputable sellers use it
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In reply to Post #2
The last lot I ordered were very fresh aswell, although I order shelf life they turned in about 10 days.
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In reply to Post #1
Very good bait with no real difference compared to the freezer bait…….very soft though so get some hard hookers if ordering some……
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With the baitworks January sale about to start was looking at ordering some bait.
Was just wondering if anyone has used there Atlantic Heat in the shelf life’s, and how do they compare to the freezer baits.
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