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Cambscarper1974

Posts: 1404

#53 24 Oct 2020 at 4.51pm

In reply to Post #47
Good post. Paisley's theory was just that and has never been proven. I don't believe it myself

Clobersauraus

Posts: 697

#52 24 Oct 2020 at 11.33am

In reply to Post #49
Fish are very basic animals to act on instinct....take the dog analogy from Scozza, i feed my dog a fully balanced expensive dog food which has been perfectly nutritiously balanced by experts.....

Yet he still licks his b*llocks and if i put this food out in one bowl and chocolate in another he will eat the chocolate first every time, and this has elements which are poisonous to him and if ate enough would kill him....yet he would continue to eat this in preference to the proper dog food

scozza

Posts: 17132

#51 24 Oct 2020 at 11.26am

In reply to Post #48
Is taste not all part of the attraction package?

If we are talking �inferior baits� you can make anything taste nice, probably what most cheaper baits are, fillers and cheaper ingredients

Wait a minute, carp can�t detect sweet things, only amino�s, oh no

Clobersauraus

Posts: 697

#50 24 Oct 2020 at 11.24am

In reply to Post #47
Quiet correct, i suppose like everything horses for courses....

If your fishing on a syndicate lake where you have a vested interest in the fish in the lake, then a good nutritious bait will not only catch fish but will be better for the fish in the long run.... if your fishing a day ticket water just on the off chance, then yes a nutritious bait will also catch and so will a high attract bait.... but the benefit of the few kg of good bait you put in will make no difference too the fish welfare if every other angler if putting in crap bait...... Like the little bit of lettuce on your Big Mac......

I always use the same bait where ever i fish as i buy in bulk ....but on my syndicate as its quiet small and intricate i throw in any left over bait at the end of the session on my few spots..... i like to think the fish are getting confident on my bait And will eventually take this is a safe food source...... saying that if you get them feeding confidently they will hoover up anything in their path....

Same as rigs, would going back to simple rigs give you the edge.....as everyone is fishing Ronnie rig this, joe blogs rig that will all swivels, rig ring etc, so a basic rig is probably very rarely encountered by many fish.... i caught my PB on a basic knot less knot rig with 1 inch stripped back, the same rig ive used for the last 25 years....

viking

Posts: 1225

#49 24 Oct 2020 at 11.22am

In reply to Post #47
I am saying it is proven that carp can select different foods and by doing that adjust it's food intake to forefill its nutritional requirements. This means it somehows recognises the nutritional value of the different food items and can cherry pick what it needs. This is probably done after the food item is eaten.
On this I recommend the papers "Effect of water temperature and short-term fasting on macronutrient self-selection by common carp (Cyprinus carpio)" and "Dietary self-selection in fish: a new approach to studying fish nutrition and feeding behavior"

I don't think this is very relevant in a real fishing situation as you have zero control on what other baits is going in or the amount of different naturals in the lake. Also, you have attraction, taste and the fish learning by angling pressure as pointed out by others.

christian

Posts: 1283

#48 24 Oct 2020 at 11.14am

In reply to Post #45
Attraction makes a carp pick up the first bait, taste might make them pick up the next 100, for me taste is the key, in a fishing situation I want freebies they really want to eat, both to keep them in the area and feeding. If I get it right they will take a match the hatch bait before they take an alternative hookbait.

Given what we know about ingredients that attract, and improve taste, including amino acids and peptides (protein) fats and sugars with these ingredients in a bait its hard to make a good bait that doesn't have a reasonable nutritional value.

Nowadays with lots of different bait going into our waters I don't buy that a carp can identify which baits are the most nutritious. Nutritional recognition is not immediate how does a carp know which food provided it when it has probably fed on many baits and naturals over a 24 hour period. Taste on the other hand is immediate and can be linked to a specific food source, which would you prefer in a Bait!

JohnnyEnglish

Posts: 224

#47 24 Oct 2020 at 11.11am

In reply to Post #44
Nutritional recognition is proven

In the simple sense that carp can recognise food, of course it is proven, otherwise the fish would not survive.

But that was not the original meaning of the phrase �nutritional recognition'.

The phrase was first coined by Tim Paisley and he clearly meant that carp are capable of evaluating the nutritional value of bait on the spot, so to speak.

It was utter nonsense.

If you study the white papers on chemoreception you will see that all the highly stimulatory amino acids are the non-essential ones, so how can carp possibly measure the nutritional value of potential food?

scozza

Posts: 17132

#46 24 Oct 2020 at 11.03am

In reply to Post #44
Nutritional recognition is proven. But how relevant is it in a real fishing situation?

Think we have been down this road before

I think once you start with pressured fish your are fishing for something completely different to ones that have not seen much bait, carp will readily investigate and eat things for me. They know exactly what is going off in their environment, they are in tune with it. You start giving them a bad experience and they become completely different quarry for me. Tiny brain and lack of intelligence you could say but you start dragging their face off with a hook and it wouldn�t take much to become cautious. Bit of an analogy but if I kicked my dog in the mouth every time it went for food it wouldn�t eat it regardless how nutritional the food was, it�s basic functions

This is one of the reasons I believe these fast growers in pressured ponds roll over so quickly, stress

As anglers, sometimes we are far too good at complicating things for ourselves at times for me

scozza

Posts: 17132

#45 24 Oct 2020 at 10.54am

In reply to Post #43
Similar thoughts to me Cambs

Attraction

viking

Posts: 1225

#44 24 Oct 2020 at 10.17am

In reply to Post #43
Nutritional recognition is proven. But how relevant is it in a real fishing situation? I would think few of the natural prey in the lake exactly forefill the carps need.
Very simplified, if the aquatic insects have an average protein content of 55% and the carp need 40% this should in theory leave an insect feeding fish looking for other sources of carbohydrates and possibly fats.

Cambscarper1974

Posts: 1404

#43 24 Oct 2020 at 9.36am

In reply to Post #41
I agree 100%. People get too caught up trying to give them a perfect balance of aminos etc when it would make more sense to put the most attractive bait you can in front of them during the time you are there. I guess the rationale is that if you feed them something they are happy to eat then you will catch them eventually but it's not the most effective approach. I guess it depends on whether you believe in nutritional recognition or not. There's too many anomalies in that theory for me. Sweet corn, 50/50 bauts, plastic. They've all caught 1000's of fish and continue to do so.. In the time I have available I'd rather catch them than feed them some super boilie that fills all their nutritional needs. In fact I want them hungry so they eat my hookbait!

MystyM

Posts: 106

#42 24 Oct 2020 at 9.32am

In reply to Post #41
�A top quality food source is not the be and end all,�
Completely agree, also some of the very successful �natural� baits would not be considered to be � top quality� food sources

scozza

Posts: 17132

#41 24 Oct 2020 at 8.20am

In reply to Post #40
One thing I like about Nash baits is that they are hard, so if I want a hard bait that silvers won�t destroy its always one of my first choices. Regardless of all negative feedback, personally Nash bait catches fish and has done me proud over the years.

Myself, as I get older my fishing has changed again, I think a lot of waters don�t respond like they used to do to top quality baits, there are tons and tons going in some waters, and again, I have no interest in feeding the fish, all I want to do is catch them, on reflection I have wasted a lot of time and this has come from my learning, you want to be going fishing and catching fish, not just going through the motions of sitting it out feeding them. You need to be doing everything you can to catch them, all the time, every time, that�s what drives me anyway lol

A top quality food source is not the be and end all, and I have come to believe this as a fact. Look at yellow pop ups, white pop ups etc, look at the fish that Marks baits catch, baitroom, UB baits, etc etc. Look at plastic corn, the ultimate non food bait!

You need bait that suits the type of water you are fishing for me. You also need to be aware of what others are doing, this can save you a lot of trial and error, once you know, then you need to be trying to take that method to another level

inzenity

Posts: 363

#40 23 Oct 2020 at 7.33pm

2 years ago i used the strawberry crunch (?) instant thing alongside the scopex squid. Always had a thing for nash bait, because well monster pursuit

, so why not. Results? 3 to 1 (or more) for the instant crap, both on the canal as on a hard lake. On some days it was nothing at all on the ss, change bait, same spot and one after another. What makes it even worse, that was in combination with the plume (goo). It goes against all my believes, crap bait, colorings, but it is what it was.

christian

Posts: 1283

#39 23 Oct 2020 at 2.40pm

"A lot of people seem to miss the fact that the early very successful richworth baits were based on putreen and were freezer baits. Originally 50/50 meant 50% protein 50% none protein and not 50% semolina and 50% soya that people understand today.

Since the production of putreen ceased have there baits ever been as successful and have there shelf life baits ever been as effective as the frozen... No they haven't even though later frozen tutti baits were still reasonably effective... And that comment comes from a confirmed flavour user."

Above was comment I made on the winter bait thread and to my mind this explains why the original tuttis were successful over a long term and current "attractor baits" are only effective short term, they only have the attractor package going for them, okay for a quick session or for single baits but not much else.


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