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 #53 24 Oct 2020 at 4.51pm | |   |
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In reply to Post #47
Good post. Paisley's theory was just that and has never been proven. I don't believe it myself
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#52 24 Oct 2020 at 11.33am | | |
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In reply to Post #49
Fish are very basic animals to act on instinct....take the dog analogy from Scozza, i feed my dog a fully balanced expensive dog food which has been perfectly nutritiously balanced by experts.....
Yet he still licks his b*llocks and if i put this food out in one bowl and chocolate in another he will eat the chocolate first every time, and this has elements which are poisonous to him and if ate enough would kill him....yet he would continue to eat this in preference to the proper dog food
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#51 24 Oct 2020 at 11.26am | | |
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In reply to Post #48
Is taste not all part of the attraction package?
If we are talking “inferior baits” you can make anything taste nice, probably what most cheaper baits are, fillers and cheaper ingredients
Wait a minute, carp can’t detect sweet things, only amino’s, oh no 
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#50 24 Oct 2020 at 11.24am | | |
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In reply to Post #47
Quiet correct, i suppose like everything horses for courses....
If your fishing on a syndicate lake where you have a vested interest in the fish in the lake, then a good nutritious bait will not only catch fish but will be better for the fish in the long run.... if your fishing a day ticket water just on the off chance, then yes a nutritious bait will also catch and so will a high attract bait.... but the benefit of the few kg of good bait you put in will make no difference too the fish welfare if every other angler if putting in crap bait...... Like the little bit of lettuce on your Big Mac......
I always use the same bait where ever i fish as i buy in bulk ....but on my syndicate as its quiet small and intricate i throw in any left over bait at the end of the session on my few spots..... i like to think the fish are getting confident on my bait And will eventually take this is a safe food source...... saying that if you get them feeding confidently they will hoover up anything in their path....
Same as rigs, would going back to simple rigs give you the edge.....as everyone is fishing Ronnie rig this, joe blogs rig that will all swivels, rig ring etc, so a basic rig is probably very rarely encountered by many fish.... i caught my PB on a basic knot less knot rig with 1 inch stripped back, the same rig ive used for the last 25 years....
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#49 24 Oct 2020 at 11.22am | | |
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In reply to Post #47
I am saying it is proven that carp can select different foods and by doing that adjust it's food intake to forefill its nutritional requirements. This means it somehows recognises the nutritional value of the different food items and can cherry pick what it needs. This is probably done after the food item is eaten.
On this I recommend the papers "Effect of water temperature and short-term fasting on macronutrient self-selection by common carp (Cyprinus carpio)" and "Dietary self-selection in fish: a new approach to studying fish nutrition and feeding behavior"
I don't think this is very relevant in a real fishing situation as you have zero control on what other baits is going in or the amount of different naturals in the lake. Also, you have attraction, taste and the fish learning by angling pressure as pointed out by others.
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#48 24 Oct 2020 at 11.14am | | |
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In reply to Post #45
Attraction makes a carp pick up the first bait, taste might make them pick up the next 100, for me taste is the key, in a fishing situation I want freebies they really want to eat, both to keep them in the area and feeding. If I get it right they will take a match the hatch bait before they take an alternative hookbait.
Given what we know about ingredients that attract, and improve taste, including amino acids and peptides (protein) fats and sugars with these ingredients in a bait its hard to make a good bait that doesn't have a reasonable nutritional value.
Nowadays with lots of different bait going into our waters I don't buy that a carp can identify which baits are the most nutritious. Nutritional recognition is not immediate how does a carp know which food provided it when it has probably fed on many baits and naturals over a 24 hour period. Taste on the other hand is immediate and can be linked to a specific food source, which would you prefer in a Bait!
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#47 24 Oct 2020 at 11.11am | | |
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In reply to Post #44
Nutritional recognition is proven
In the simple sense that carp can recognise food, of course it is proven, otherwise the fish would not survive.
But that was not the original meaning of the phrase ‘nutritional recognition'.
The phrase was first coined by Tim Paisley and he clearly meant that carp are capable of evaluating the nutritional value of bait on the spot, so to speak.
It was utter nonsense.
If you study the white papers on chemoreception you will see that all the highly stimulatory amino acids are the non-essential ones, so how can carp possibly measure the nutritional value of potential food?
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#46 24 Oct 2020 at 11.03am | | |
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In reply to Post #44
Nutritional recognition is proven. But how relevant is it in a real fishing situation?
Think we have been down this road before 
I think once you start with pressured fish your are fishing for something completely different to ones that have not seen much bait, carp will readily investigate and eat things for me. They know exactly what is going off in their environment, they are in tune with it. You start giving them a bad experience and they become completely different quarry for me. Tiny brain and lack of intelligence you could say but you start dragging their face off with a hook and it wouldn’t take much to become cautious. Bit of an analogy but if I kicked my dog in the mouth every time it went for food it wouldn’t eat it regardless how nutritional the food was, it’s basic functions 
This is one of the reasons I believe these fast growers in pressured ponds roll over so quickly, stress 
As anglers, sometimes we are far too good at complicating things for ourselves at times for me 
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#45 24 Oct 2020 at 10.54am | | |
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In reply to Post #43
Similar thoughts to me Cambs
Attraction 
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#44 24 Oct 2020 at 10.17am | | |
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In reply to Post #43
Nutritional recognition is proven. But how relevant is it in a real fishing situation? I would think few of the natural prey in the lake exactly forefill the carps need.
Very simplified, if the aquatic insects have an average protein content of 55% and the carp need 40% this should in theory leave an insect feeding fish looking for other sources of carbohydrates and possibly fats.
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#43 24 Oct 2020 at 9.36am | | |
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In reply to Post #41
I agree 100%. People get too caught up trying to give them a perfect balance of aminos etc when it would make more sense to put the most attractive bait you can in front of them during the time you are there. I guess the rationale is that if you feed them something they are happy to eat then you will catch them eventually but it's not the most effective approach. I guess it depends on whether you believe in nutritional recognition or not. There's too many anomalies in that theory for me. Sweet corn, 50/50 bauts, plastic. They've all caught 1000's of fish and continue to do so.. In the time I have available I'd rather catch them than feed them some super boilie that fills all their nutritional needs. In fact I want them hungry so they eat my hookbait!
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#42 24 Oct 2020 at 9.32am | | |
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In reply to Post #41
“A top quality food source is not the be and end all,”
Completely agree, also some of the very successful “natural” baits would not be considered to be “ top quality” food sources
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#41 24 Oct 2020 at 8.20am | | |
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In reply to Post #40
One thing I like about Nash baits is that they are hard, so if I want a hard bait that silvers won’t destroy its always one of my first choices. Regardless of all negative feedback, personally Nash bait catches fish and has done me proud over the years.
Myself, as I get older my fishing has changed again, I think a lot of waters don’t respond like they used to do to top quality baits, there are tons and tons going in some waters, and again, I have no interest in feeding the fish, all I want to do is catch them, on reflection I have wasted a lot of time and this has come from my learning, you want to be going fishing and catching fish, not just going through the motions of sitting it out feeding them. You need to be doing everything you can to catch them, all the time, every time, that’s what drives me anyway lol
A top quality food source is not the be and end all, and I have come to believe this as a fact. Look at yellow pop ups, white pop ups etc, look at the fish that Marks baits catch, baitroom, UB baits, etc etc. Look at plastic corn, the ultimate non food bait!
You need bait that suits the type of water you are fishing for me. You also need to be aware of what others are doing, this can save you a lot of trial and error, once you know, then you need to be trying to take that method to another level
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#40 23 Oct 2020 at 7.33pm | | |
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2 years ago i used the strawberry crunch (?) instant thing alongside the scopex squid. Always had a thing for nash bait, because well monster pursuit  , so why not. Results? 3 to 1 (or more) for the instant crap, both on the canal as on a hard lake. On some days it was nothing at all on the ss, change bait, same spot and one after another. What makes it even worse, that was in combination with the plume (goo). It goes against all my believes, crap bait, colorings, but it is what it was.
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#39 23 Oct 2020 at 2.40pm | | |
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"A lot of people seem to miss the fact that the early very successful richworth baits were based on putreen and were freezer baits. Originally 50/50 meant 50% protein 50% none protein and not 50% semolina and 50% soya that people understand today.
Since the production of putreen ceased have there baits ever been as successful and have there shelf life baits ever been as effective as the frozen... No they haven't even though later frozen tutti baits were still reasonably effective... And that comment comes from a confirmed flavour user."
Above was comment I made on the winter bait thread and to my mind this explains why the original tuttis were successful over a long term and current "attractor baits" are only effective short term, they only have the attractor package going for them, okay for a quick session or for single baits but not much else.
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#38 23 Oct 2020 at 2.18pm | | |
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In reply to Post #37
50% protein in the case of the Richworth freezer baits mate, that'd be the Pruteen 
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#37 23 Oct 2020 at 2.04pm | | |
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In reply to Post #36
50/50 mix used be known as just that Semolina/Maize flour
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#36 23 Oct 2020 at 1.24pm | | |
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In reply to Post #34
There was a lot more going on with Richwoths 50/50 mixes that what you have eluded to.
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#35 23 Oct 2020 at 1.21pm | | |
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In reply to Post #34
Not factually correct on the breakdown of ingredients in Richworth Tutti's mate, the inclusion of Pruteen in the mix was a big contributory factor to their success
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#34 23 Oct 2020 at 12.54pm | | |
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In reply to Post #33
I mentioned earlier about the baits being full of Rice Flour but what I forgot to mention was that in the old day`s and probably still now, one of the best winter baits I have ever used was frozen Richworth Tutti Frutti`s and these where indeed made on a VERY cheap 50/50 basemix of Semolina, Maize Flour and soya flour yet they have tripped up 1000s of very sluggish winter carp with many many repeat catches and would still catch very wary carp now
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#33 23 Oct 2020 at 11.24am | | |
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In reply to Post #31
We have had a look ( analysis) at some of the Nash instant action range . The “ nutritional“ values are fairly similar to some other very well known long standing boilies produced by other companies.
The “flavour” chemicals used are those that historically have been identified as effective “attractants” by those who believe in the value of them.
Additionally other chemicals that are validated known attractants/ feed inducers are present.
This “class “of boilies is predominately associated with high volume supply through retail outlets, the demand is there , and they will catch carp ; but as you rightly say it’s “ “horses for courses”
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#32 23 Oct 2020 at 11.16am | | |
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In reply to Post #1
I haven't used them but am sure those pop-ups will catch, no it's not the best pop-ups but will work and the liquids too.
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#31 23 Oct 2020 at 6.40am | | |
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In reply to Post #30
To be fair mate, they had not seen much bait, hence my choice
Makes total sense to use the ultimate food bait. I choose my baits on where I fish. If you are on carp they are catchable, add pressure and it becomes at totally different game altogether for me
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#30 22 Oct 2020 at 9.28pm | | |
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In reply to Post #29
I strongly suspect that you would have caught more with a better bait. Good angling though, sounds like fun.
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#29 22 Oct 2020 at 8.47pm | | |
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Interesting reading this thread. Couple of years ago now I bought 40kg, perfect for where I was fishing, a nature reserve. Had 2 fish and lost 2 in just over a month from a virtually un fished water that I suspected had carp in it. I was fishing it every Sunday morning or Wednesday evening once a week pending where else I was fishing, put a bit in though
Bought it because it was cheap, nice and visual and the fish have never seen much bait, Nash bait works for me and Gary Baynes knows more about bait than me. Nope, it’s not a super nutritional bait compared with others, it’s an attractor for some instant action lol
Use with confidence
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#28 22 Oct 2020 at 7.58pm | | |
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In reply to Post #20
Spot on.
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#27 22 Oct 2020 at 7.04pm | | |
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In reply to Post #20
Couldn't agree more matt, a well balanced bait with decent attractors will out fish a crap mix with decent attractors every time
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#26 22 Oct 2020 at 4.13pm | | |
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In reply to Post #23
Agree possibly skimping on the important ingredients. Haven't looked at any labels recently but the tangerine dream and the strawberry crush looked to have reasonable attraction package, although cannot comment on the others... or if the levels are high enough
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#25 22 Oct 2020 at 3.54pm | | |
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In reply to Post #24
see that's what i am getting at - put those three in a decent fishmeal mix and you're on a winner. Put it on a load of rice / semo "crap" and it just doesn't work.
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#24 22 Oct 2020 at 3.36pm | | |
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In reply to Post #21
I thought that. surely a bait containing the squid extract, krill and shellfish sense appeal would be ok as an attractor bait thats why i bought it. Sadly it really didnt work for me and would most definitely not buy again.
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#23 22 Oct 2020 at 2.37pm | | |
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In reply to Post #22
decent powders and liquids Christian - I sort of agree.
decent powders and liquids in these baits? 
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#22 22 Oct 2020 at 2.26pm | | |
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In reply to Post #21
But even at £9 a kilo, he must be producing it for less than £2 a kg. For the fishes welfare surely For the sake of a few Ingrediants and a £1 more it could be improved massively. The ones I’ve seen were like bullets. I don’t mind a firm bait that breaks down quick but these things would penetrate a tank.
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#21 22 Oct 2020 at 2.15pm | | |
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In reply to Post #20
If your talking about a quick day session, especially this time of year then I'll disagree with you. For a quick few bites a good attractor package, powders and liquids are all you need in freebies and hook bait.
Completely different if your on a longer session and different answer again if you are on a campaign but for quick hits attraction will suffice.
And I've been experimenting and making baits longer than I care to admit...
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#20 22 Oct 2020 at 2.05pm | | |
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In reply to Post #19
thing is anyone with any knowledge of bait at all knows that a decent attractor on its own isn't that great a fish catcher. A decent attractor on a decent base - different gravy. Even if fishing singles.
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#19 22 Oct 2020 at 1.21pm | | |
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We are talking about the instant action range, it's not meant to be of great nutritional value, surely it is relying on the attractors in the bait to do the work. Never used these baits as I make my own including high attract baits but what I have found is that Nash attractors are very good and I have used several of them over the years very successfully.
If these attractors are in the instant attraction range I would expect them to do what they say on the label.
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#18 22 Oct 2020 at 1.19pm | | |
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In reply to Post #17
Don't you think that we as consumers have a part to play?
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#17 22 Oct 2020 at 1.05pm | | |
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In reply to Post #15
simple. Cost and margin. If he upgraded the baits to the sort of ingredients in say ABS's Hydra K, he'ld have to charge £12 - 15 a kilo to make the same margin as they can make making them from sub standard ingredients at the current selling price.
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#16 22 Oct 2020 at 1.03pm | | |
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In reply to Post #15
If you read the contents on the back of the bag most of them are loaded with Rice Flour which has virtually NO nutritional value at all and is VERY cheap to buy in bulk
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#15 22 Oct 2020 at 12.55pm | | |
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In reply to Post #13
I don’t get it ? I’ve never ever done well on Nash baits except once on scopex squid and robin red.
They all seem like harden Plasticine even the ones I had abit of success on.
Why hasn’t he upgraded his baits to be better ?
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#14 22 Oct 2020 at 12.55pm | | |
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They are trash honestly.
I made the mistake of grabbing a few bags for a runs water. May as well have took some play dough from the kids room.
Just terrible in every way.
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#13 22 Oct 2020 at 10.16am | | |
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In reply to Post #12
Floor sweepings! 
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#12 22 Oct 2020 at 9.50am | | |
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I bought some strawberry crush pop ups before to use in winter, they had what could only be described as bits of hey/twigs in them, never seen it before in a bait, me and a mate bought a pot each and they was both the same, never seen it in bait before, really strange and went straight in the bin.
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#11 22 Oct 2020 at 6.30am | | |
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utter crap. the ingredients are shocking.
can buy decent bait from an independent bait maker with better quality ingredients.
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#10 21 Oct 2020 at 7.36pm | | |
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In reply to Post #8
They can´t be that bad, can they ? 
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In reply to Post #1
You've misunderstood the product. It's instant action for Mr Nash's bank account.
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In reply to Post #5
Its what I thought
I've never used them ,just curious whether anyone has done any good
with them considering the price
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In reply to Post #1
Total rubbish just take a look at the 'nutritional' info and ingredients listed on the back. I bought some for a social session on a runs water back in the spring and couldn't get a bite on them. Other rods baited with my usual s7 produced consistently. Wouldnt waste your money. I used to rate Nash bait back in the day but seems to have really gone down hill
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In reply to Post #3
Even the pop ups mate. alot of companies roll a blank and add flavour but I’d pay a little more for hand made pop ups with known attractors or liquids ( acids and aminos ) This way your not just relying on the visual aspect of the bait to do all the work.
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In reply to Post #3
Far better out there IMO. And for the sake of a couple of quid more for a more reputable brand then why risk it?
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In reply to Post #2
I just really meant the pop ups and liquids
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It’s a terrible bait in my Opinion. Like feeding the carp stale bread.
For a little bit more work you could create a far more nutritionally balanced bait. £9 for a single kg is shocking when there’s reputable company’s who sell bait for £7-9 a kg and is far far better.
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I have just been looking around my local tackle shop .
I noticed the nash instant action pop ups and plume juice prices seemed a lot lower
than other brands.
Has anyone used these with any reasonable success .
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