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Thoughts on this fellas?
https://youtu.be/_wxQpWkl0BY
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In reply to Post #63
I like those beads, massive step forward in fish safety for me, brilliant 
The only thing I found poor and eventually put me off them was the tapered silicone section that the bead sat on, didn’t last long after a few fish on bottom baits. Not sure if they have improved this yet?
No doubt, for me the helicopter is on of the best set ups about or has been for me over the years 
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In reply to Post #64
It is a fact that all angling poses some level of danger to fish. All we can do is minimise the risk by good practice, good gear used the right way. Fish care is a state of mind. It should tell you where, when, how to fish and when not to fish in a particular way. Catching should come a long way second. When you've landed a fish, it's care is your priority, not the next fish.
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| | | noj | | Posts: 11459 | | | Social photographer... | |
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In reply to Post #61
Those fused leaders are awful, the loop is far too thick as is the material itself.
A short leader with lead attached and Korda drop off beads is really the best option if you must use something, then you only have minimal abrasion resistance though and people will make them longer and longer as they feel their own success is of more importance than fish welfare.. it’s a slippery slope
Then you have people distance casting with light mainline, 4 or 5 turns of heavy braid on the spool, a second leader and a lead clip or heli set up... make your own mind up about that
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In reply to Post #62
All about percentages for me too. I also agree about the possible environmental impacts of dropping the lead so I don't. If your rig is not deliberately set up to eject the lead and even if it is the only rig that can possibly leave a fish with just the hook link is a fixed lead helicopter. The danger as always is incorrect use of components. I use Korda no trace beads and have complete faith in them. They release easily and consistently. A fixed lead is what makes them work. I have never landed a trailer with a failed heli set up, they have always been barbed hooks on lead clips with tangled twisted line the fish can't pull away from. I sleep easily at night. A barbless hook on an 8 ins hook length will be gone within minutes.
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In reply to Post #61
It’s about percentages for me
I don’t agree on dropping leads, unknown environmental impact but if there is one thing that will snag a fish this is number 1, towing 3oz about, especially on a helicopter if the hook length is locked up against the top bead and the lead is a few feet away dragging through snags or weed etc., not going to shake that out is it?
Number 2, towing a hook length, clip or bead and swivel if a run rig is used and a leader if used and a length of line with the lead dropped, key point, no lead, the heavy bit...
Number 3. A helicopter in theory is perfect if it all pulls off nicely and the fish is left with a hooklink only. The reality is when the line parts above a leadcore leader people just assume the swivel will come off, the reality is, it does not as the one i found with a bead on the piece of silicone that did not pull off
So which risk do you want to take, that’s the question. If you are a lover of big old carp then you have to live with the decision that if your line parts you can sleep comfortable on a night knowing that the fish will swim another day. It’s as simple as that. Over to you
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There is never going to be agreement on this. All rigs can be dangerous in different conditions. All I would say is that in a perfect world a properly constructed heli rig is the only one that can consistently leave a fish with the hook length only(provided you don't drop the lead). It's the only set up I use a leader with. By a leader I mean short (3ft) lead core or fused. I feel happy with this.
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In reply to Post #59
Agree. My point is about helicopters and the bead not coming off, that’s deadly
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In reply to Post #58
Exactly that Noj.
“Nothing for me is as good as a helicopter but I won’t compromise on fish safety, it’s a trade off for me”
That doesn’t make any sense Scozza. If you get cut off with clips you are 100% leaving the fish trailing your leader. At least with the helicopters they have the chance of being left with only a hooklink.
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| | | noj | | Posts: 11459 | | | Social photographer... | |
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The only thing to actually improve the ‘safety’ of carp since people moved away from hooklinks light enough to give them a sporting chance.... Covid 19 
Everything else is a theoretical best case scenario.
You can’t use a lead clip or running lead on a leader and claim dropping leads on a helicopter set up as dangerous because they all have the same potential outcome.
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This has been done to death on here over the years. A long time ago there was a great thread on snag fishing and after plenty of falling out everybody came to agree that the safest method was a run rig and a barbless hook was the safest method
I have been a massive fan of lead core but for the last few years I decided to drop it because it can be dangerous, especially in the wrong hands!
The video below is very good but if you use leadcore in weed, especially blanket weed It can wrap up and cover the top bead, I have had this many times, and if you have a long length of leadcore above the top bead, this has the potential to fold fold over and lock the bead, couple this with weed and it is not coming off. I have to say those safety beads are a very good step forward though. Beats a piece of spaghetti!
A few years ago now there was a lad fishing near me and I was watching him play a fish out, next thing he had lost it. I was having a chat with him, said he had a hook pull. The following day I went down and fished the same spot, thats where the fish were. As I sat there a fish kept swirling under the weed, just didn’t look right to me, they don’t do that. I cast a lead over it to see what was going off, after a few attempts I picked a line up, I managed to get hold of it and pull it all back towards me, at the net a massive ball of weed and one absolutely exhausted 20lb mirror that was connected to a lead core ball of weed. I still have the picture somewhere of the leadcore. He didn’t have a hook pull, it had got weeded and he had pulled and got a break. Luckily I managed to free it. Certainly gets you thinking.
The trouble is with carp fishing we are conditioned to use things that we don’t really need. The first clear leaders were made by TFG before everybody jumped on the bandwagon. I was straight onto them, anything for an edge and then I realised, no difference to my catch rate and why do I want to use something so thick when there are other alternatives!
For the last few years I have used mono to around 5 foot of Fluoro carbon for the simple reason I get the sink factor of the Fluoro and also loose the horrible casting nature of Fluoro, so as I see it the best of both worlds. I also use an ESP lead clip since I cannot find a better alternative for a lead connection at the moment. I don’t like lead clips at all, there is too much free movement before a fish hits the lead and I am aware that it costs me fish now and again. That my personal choice of course. Nothing for me is as good as a helicopter but I won’t compromise on fish safety, it’s a trade off for me
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If I think I may need to have the lead drop on a helicoptor setup (only if fishing near heavy weed beds), I will use the 6lb breaking strain C Clips, which will only drop the lead should it become snagged up & if a top bead takes 6lb pressure to dislodge it, then it is too tight even for a standard lead on a traditional clip at end of the leader! The top bead should come off with a shake of the hooklink. I know that I can shake a 1.5oz lead on the end of a leader with a C clip on it & the top bead will dislodge with ease. If it doesn't, then it doesn't get cast out!
Also seems to be a lot of anglers that will use too light of a mainline with leadcore or any high breaking strain leader. I will always use the heaviest mainline I can get away with (usually 0.38mm+ which with a good knot will break at least 18lb breaking strain usually a lot more!).
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In reply to Post #53
I think you have to be signed into FB and then it's in a group that you may have to be a member of 
I've asked him to put it up on YouTube, don't know if he will of course
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In reply to Post #52
Hmm says links broken for me
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In reply to Post #51
Works for me.
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In reply to Post #50
No doesn't work
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Not sure if you'll be able to see this but someone has posted a video on Facebook that sums this up perfectly
LINK
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In reply to Post #45
Ozzywelshborn
I dont believe in weak hook lengths, I think every rig should have the strength to catch the biggest or hardest fighting fish in the venue.
The korda helisafe is a useful gizmo and I prefer using it without a leader for reasons Ive specified in my previous post.
By dropping the lead on leadcore / leaders it keeps the hook link attached because it cannot pull free
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In reply to Post #46
I prefer the naked setup in a rotary configuration because the weak point changes to the helisafe swivel instead of the leader loop.
I did use this setup in France a few years ago on thick Tiger Line Fluorocarbon but only because the venue was 6ft deep in soft silt with nearby thick beds of lilly pads and bull rushes where my usual safe lead clip run rigs were rendered useless.
I did go against my usual fishing tactics and I dropped the leads knowing that the hook link could pull free no matter where a break on the main line occured even without the lead.
I know some posters have suggested that dropping leads is un-necessary in any circumstances but I totally disagree.
For me snag fishing and pva bag tactics do justify it.
Again it comes down to fish care.
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In reply to Post #46
I think it's a decent product when used naked for the correct angling situation.
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What are people views on using the Korda Heli safe when fishing naked chod/heli style?
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In reply to Post #38
So the korda system is not a good one even with a low rated hook length. Thanks
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In reply to Post #41
Cheers,
I can't remember how many years ago I argued over that article, it is at least 6 now from working out my living arrangements. Why I can remember it so well is simply because it was such an emotive subject.
For years I avoided using leaders unless I absolutely had to, they would not be used in any weedy or snaggy water. I used a mainline that had good abrasion resistance, I checked it regularly.
However, last year I started fishing a large reservoir, with the remains of buildings on the bottom; concrete blocks, metal guttering, bricks, a road and drain culverts.
To cope with fish staying deep, and running around some of these, I had to go back to a 'rubbing' leader, or snag leader. I landed a double figure carp that had shredded the leader, it looked like it had been shaved.
I lost two (or three?) fish to snapped hooklinks, while using 15lb mainline to a 30lb Leader.
I think is where we come up with our problems.
Any person can go out and buy the gear. They can catch fish, they may have genuine skills, watercraft, brilliant. They become experienced, but they may not know the 'safe' way to fish.
Not everyone is a social angler. That now experienced angler could be fishing in a manner that could lead to tethered fish, without even knowing it is not safe.
This is where anglers need a test before getting their licence.
Then we have fisheries, from club waters, season tickets, syndicates and day tickets. Even day ticket waters are different. There are some of the bigger day ticket waters that not only encourage, but insist on safe angling, and will check, yet some are 'anything goes'.
Season ticket waters, clubs or national park fishery. Some are anything goes, others are strict on enforcing rules.
Personally, I think waters should be registered or even licenced.
Tackle brands, I don't think everything is designed with fish safety in mind, some is most definitely sold in money making over fish safety, or even manufactured with flaws, a case in point to me was Korda lead clips. Clicking onto the swivel, a lazy and dangerous flaw. Not every swivel is the same size, smaller swivel loops or barrel can see the lead clip running free, and the lead unable to eject.
Yes Korda recommended their own swivels, but I grab a size 8 swivel, I don't have the eyesight to see any minor difference in size between brands.
It is not just Korda though, I just picked on my favourite hate😖😅, other brands are equally as guilty.
This is where tackle manufacturers from Nash, Fox, Gardner and any other need to take a step back and look at tackle safety.
At this point we go back to the angler again...
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In reply to Post #42
Spot on Thats one of the scenarios that in my opinion, I feel leadcore makes that situation safer for the carp.
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In reply to Post #41
I agree with that, I only use leadcore really on a ressy where it's pretty much all rocks all the way down the margins so if the fish decides to put its head down at the last minute then bang he's gone without using leadcore. So it's 90% of fish left with a braided hooklink in there mouth with no leader or risk it a little but a much higher chance of landing the fish.
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In reply to Post #40
It is a old article to be fair.
I’m really surprised to see this is still a hot topic, I remember nicks article from years ago! Whilst I will always be in the pro leadcore group he was the only one who actually quantified his statements with evidence.
It is horses for courses though, I’ve always been taught the safest thing for the carp is to land it and there are certain situations when fishing straight through mainline will put the carp at more risk 
With complete novices I think the fisheries have minimised the risks as much as they can. The waters that would attract your first time carper or part time novice tend to have bans on barbed hooks, leaders and removed all the snags.
A syndicate I use to fish done safety talks & rig checks often(not ideal when you’ve just got it pin point  ) but everyone was reasonable and offered advice.
I don’t think we should put so much pressure on the brands marketing at the end of the day they need to make a living and they are catering to all types of experienced anglers. It’s the fisheries that need to protect their stock and manage accordingly to the type of anglers they attract.
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In reply to Post #39
Yeah that's my point. Look how long the leader is.
'the perfect way'
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In reply to Post #37
Karmh
And that's in the angling times!
Shocking
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In reply to Post #33
Ozzywelshborn
The helisafe dumps the weight off the end of the leadcore which then means the fish cannot pull the hook length off the leadcore in the event of a mainline break.
There's nothing for the hook length to pull against and move the top bead over the leadcore loop to free the hook length.
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What about this then.
https://www.anglingtimes.co.uk/advice/rigs/articles/how-to-tie-the-perfect-in-line-big-carp-fishing-rig
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Go back to Chuffy. "never drop the lead on lead core." Nuff said.
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In reply to Post #30
Totally agree, but I think we may be in the minority here.
I’ve always used a weaker hook link than my main line with the thought to minimise what the carp is left with if the worse happens and the carp finds a snag.
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In reply to Post #1
When I used to this i wouldn’t fish a top bead just PVA up for the cast. There is always some resistance so I wasn’t to bothered with indication etc...
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In reply to Post #20
Have not fished a heli rig to be honest but if I was to fish it I take it that Korda Heli safe system in not in favour as the hook length wont run off the leader?
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In reply to Post #28
How do they get to know better. All they are being encouraged to do is buy lots of the latest gear, lots of the latest bait and pile it in. Big hits, big fish. Fish like a new age carp hero, YEEEHAAAAA.
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In reply to Post #30
If you're fishing a heli set up the safety element is that the hooklink can run off the leader and mainline - the breaking strain of the hooklink makes no difference to this.
If you're fishing a leadclip ir inline system - it doesn't matter if you have a 10lb hooklink and a 30ml mainline, if you crack off on the cast, or get cut off on a bar the fish is towing the hoolink and the leader. A fish isn't going to break a 10lb hooklink.
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In reply to Post #29
This can apply to any leaders not just leadcore. I have used leadcore on a helicopter setup for nearly 20 years. Never dropped the lead as I don’t feel it’s needed. Any form of leader is generally 30-45lb ish breaking strain. They can all be lethal. Personally I think people need to stop using 25lb hooklengths when using any form of leader as most of the time they have 12-15lb line. I’ve never used more than 15lb (bar the original stuff link). I would much rather the weak link be the hooklength so if anything will snap it will be that rather than the mainline.
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In reply to Post #28
You neglected to include experienced anglers in your statement, nit picking perhaps but obviously the duty of care applied to us all.
I’ve seen a carp tethered to a clump of rushes by just a plain length of line so the unexpected can and will happen.
Hopefully the risk diminishes with experience but anything on a line must increase the danger to the carp even if it’s set up correctly.
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In reply to Post #24
Beginners and inexperienced anglers should know better, they have a duty of care, a responsibility and consideration. Qualities that many lack.
The likes of korda could be using their high profile to publicise this but muh, profits and TV status.
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In reply to Post #26
Nice one
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In reply to Post #25
I don't think we're that far away from the same page mate
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In reply to Post #22
Yonny
We'll have to agree to disagree mate, New anglers never google "safe" and its not their fault for not doing so.
They google the latest rigs
You are further down the road assuming people already have some prior knowledge that fishing rigs can be dangerous and have a duty to search out the information you suggest before tying up the rigs.
Try asking a non angler what he/she understands to be a safe fishing rig and in most instances you'll be met with a blank look.
What happens when these same people walk into a tackle shop to buy carp gear for the first time? Wheres all the information on fish safety?
There isnt any
A lot more could be done to educate newbies both at junior level within fishing clubs and at any level on product packaging and a lot more needs to be done in the angling media.
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In reply to Post #23
To be clear, I wasn't calling beginners and inexperienced anglers idiots. I was referring to those that should know better
And I agree with you that there is a huge amount of confused, badly explained and misleading stuff about EVERYTHING on the net.
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In reply to Post #18
I agree that there is a huge amount of good info out there. However there is a huge amount of confused, badly explained and misleading stuff on the net, YouTube, vlogs, blogs and in mags. And not just about fish safety.
To call beginners and inexperienced anglers idiots is, I'm sorry to say, arrogant nonsense. We all started there. There are a good number of people making good money from carp angling and angling in general. Bait deal, tackle deals, promotions, the manufacturers etc. They should be doing better, less ego, more sense.
The money, all of it, comes from the ordinary Joe's, beginners, idiots, and anglers in general. My 52 years experience allows me to filter out most of the rubbish from what I see, hear and read. For a lot of anglers that is not the case. Money is the curse.
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In reply to Post #21
If you Google "Korda leadcore dropping the lead" did you expect to find anything other than the Heli Safe?
Googling "ESP dropping the lead" would likely see something from ESP (in fact I just did that and it shows the ESP guide to drop-off inlines on leadcore). Same deal.
Now if we Google "safe carp angling" which would make much more sense for someone trying to find out about safe carp angling, you immediately hit countless videos and articles on safe carp angling.
This is basically just the same discussion about the safety of leadcore that's been going on for years and years - since lead core was introduced. The Heli Safe is just the same as any other lead clip or drop off system. Nothing has changed. This is a burnt out subject as you said in your initial post (but no less important for it). There are threads pop up every other month covering this subject so I refuse to accept that accurate info isn't out there for those that look for it.
As I said I do agree with you that all firms could do more to advocate the use of drop-off systems without leadcore. Also, I wasn't referring to inexperienced anglers when I used the term 'idiots' - although it's funny how newer anglers and 'anglers who make mistakes' seem perfectly capable of seeking out accurate info related to munga and such like.
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In reply to Post #18
Yonny
So lets test your theory of the information is all out there.
I'm new to the sport and I google "Korda leadcore dropping the lead" and I click onto ......
https://carptalk.uk/rigs/heli-safe-system/
A very nice informative website.
I then pitch up next to you on a premier carp water and you wander over to help me land a stunning carp and you start spitting feathers after seeing that I've dropped my lead on leadcore.
As a new idiotic angler to the sport what have I done wrong?
There is information out there and for the new anglers who do search, much of it is wrong and dangerous!
Until this changes, it is also wrong to label all anglers who make mistakes as idiots
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In reply to Post #19
Someone mentioned regular rig checks as being a suitable solution. It is not imo. Stopping guys after they've already done it is backwards. I think there should be a simple theory test to obtain the rod license. So anglers are forced to educate themselves.
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In reply to Post #18
I agree. A simple google search is a it takes and there’s loads of information. Fishing safely is the responsibility of the angler and nobody else. If people misuse tackle it’s not the tackle company’s fault. People don’t blame the car companies for drink drivers do they. Some anglers are lazy, and sadly as Yonny says, some simply don’t care.
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In reply to Post #17
I would disagree. It all out there, you just have to Google it. The problem is that some idiots cant be bothered to look for it or simply dont care.
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In reply to Post #15
I agree with you, no question and it's great that fish safety continues to be a priority.
However, look through the threads and the questions and problems that come up time after time. There are a lot of people out there struggling with the absolute basics. They have a major problem because most journalists, media faces etc don't want to approach a really basic how to series and a few would struggle. Major gap in provision.
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In reply to Post #15
Agreed. However just because the info is there it doesn’t mean everyone reads or adheres to it.
Personally I am not comfortable using lead core any time, anywhere but I can see that in the right hands and right situation then maybe it has a use.
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In reply to Post #14
This is the reason I started this thread, the carp fishing industry is pushing fish safety to the back of the queue.
There has never been a wider variety of safety items within the tackle world and there has never been more information about safe angling at our fingertips.
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In reply to Post #13
I dont use big heavy inline leads with short hook links but I can find plenty of mainstream carp anglers in the fishing press that do.
This is the reason I started this thread, the carp fishing industry is pushing fish safety to the back of the queue.
I used Korda as an example but most tackle manufacturers are guilty of failing to show what happens if their products are used incorrectly.
It also grinds at me how the carp fishing community seem to have developed some kind of superiority complex and look down on inexperienced anglers.
Noddy, Argos carper, We've all heard the many derogatory comments aimed at fellow anglers and its a far cry from the 1980s before carp fishing became some kind of cult.
Its not a crime to be an inexperienced carp angler and the industry should be geared to the inexperienced with Do's & Donts clearly labelled on their packaging.
This combined with regular rig checks by bailiffs up and down the country is the way forward for our sport and for the protection of the fish we all should care about.
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In reply to Post #10
Disagree all you want mate but it's wrong. If you feel you "have" to drop the lead then you aint fishing right imo. In the circumstances you mentioned its simple, don't use big heavy inline leads and short rigs. It's completely unnecessary
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In reply to Post #7
The Korda lead clips are also dangerous, jam the tail rubber on too tightly without wetting with saliva and death follows.
Korda lead clips are not dangerous. An idiot that misuses gear is dangerous.
As for Korda putting a warning on the heli safe. Do we see a warning on the packets of lead clips from literally ANY other manufacturer? Nope.
Korda have no more to do with this subject than any other tackle firm imo. Could they do more to communicate safe use info? Defo, but so could everyone else.
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In reply to Post #9
Phil,
Good of you to bring this up.
Years ago I challenged an article in Advanced Carp Fishing that had leadcore set-up with the rig at the end, and a pendant style lead, on a lead clip.
I wrote to the editor at the time, after I had done some experiments in the water in winter, and found any leadcore set-up that broke off above the leader, whether the lead was attached or not, became a tether rig.
My findings were laughed off, I was accused of being a keyboard warrior, rather than an angler.
ACF then commissioned an article, Moorsey vs an ESP sponsored angler, for or against leadcore. Moorsey's response I think is obvious, no need for leadcore, however the sponsored angler again accused me of scaremongering.
I stand by my findings, you should never use an inline, pendant lead clip or run ring set-up with leadcore, and even with a helicopter set-up, you must be 100% that the fish will not be trailing the lot about, the only thing they should be left with in event of a break-off is the rig, which CAN be ejected.
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In reply to Post #5
Ip100
I have to disagree mate, I'm not a fan of dropping leads but dropping a heavy inline lead is a must.
Particularly when fished on a very short hook length in a PVA bag.
This is the only time I drop a lead or the lead will be smashing into the carps head / eye during the fight
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In reply to Post #1
I agree with everything that has been posted about not dropping the lead on a rotary set up. If you drop the lead the hooklink cannot pass over the top bead and will be trailing the leadcore.
I’ve always thought the ‘elephant in the room’ with rig safety is a standard lead clip set up with leadcore will also leave a fish trailing leadcore in the event of a break off. Why does nobody talk about this??
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there is room for most things to turn into a disaster if used by numpties. there aint a substitute for experience but some people want everything now. fished a few weeks ago a guy in his 40s turned up with all the kit I had just returned a fish and was in the process of chucking out when he asked what line I was using, if I used a shockleader and why I aint using 50mm butt rings. he dropped next door and cracked 4 rigs of in 4 casts and came back round asking why he couldn't reach the distance and why he was cracking off turns out he was using 18lb fluorocarbon to a leadcore leader attached by a swivel. The ticket costs a grand fish upto 50lb. And that puts you in a awkward position to have to tell a bloke that he is using a deathrig. He had all the gear but no idea. The odd rig check wouldn't go a miss people bayliffs abuse it and rig check people because they are the only people catching.
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In reply to Post #1
Chuffy that was the reaction I expected.
It's a given amongst experienced carp anglers.
But where does Korda put this warning on their helisafe droppers?
There's new blood flooding into the carp scene every week and the industry should be shouldering more responsibility for fish safety.
The Korda lead clips are also dangerous, jam the tail rubber on too tightly without wetting with saliva and death follows.
I totally understand why some venues, home and abroad are banning these products.
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i wouldnt go as far as saying never drop a lead ever. on leadcore i agree but there is certain situations I will drop a lead depending on the situation but never with leadcore.
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In reply to Post #1
Dropping leads is silly, nomatter what you use
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In reply to Post #2
And me three.
Never drop the lead on leadcore, and do not use it in weed or snags.
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In reply to Post #2
Ditto. And don't use lead core for snag fishing.
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In reply to Post #1
Never drop the lead on leadcore, next.....
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I know this is a burnt out subject but who drops their leads on leadcore?
It's great having a top safety bead that passes over the leadcore loop on a rotary setup but this can only happen when the hook length has a weight to pull against.
Drop the lead and the fish just trails a leadcore leader if the mainline breaks yet it amazes me how many anglers still drop their leads on leadcore thinking they have a perfectly safe setup.
I'm interested to hear different views on this subject ....
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