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   Ultimate Milk Protein base mix?
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   Old Thread  #157 5 Feb 2019 at 8.24pm Login so you can post / reply  Register so you can join in!
In reply to Post #150
Evening BB
I'm honestly not sure how to answer your post without increasing your frustrations, so I'll just leave you with an example from my own fishing. After a successful spring, summer and autumn a few years ago I had caught plenty of good fish but not one special common I really wanted. I had been using a fish and meat meal bait with added yeast and with a savoury flavour and hydro fish products. With winter approaching I asked a couple of previous captors of the fish what they had it on. I was surprised at the answer, they had both caught it on an orange fruity pop up. From then on in I swopped to a low protein birdfood with a fruity flavour and sweet feed liquids, and of course Orange dye. You know what's coming I'm sure, third session in along came the common. If this was just a one off I would put it down to coincidence but it's not, it's happened a few times since....you can wait an awful long time to catch ALL of the fish by staying on the same bait.....or if you include a combination of attractor types in one bait you might just attract more of the carp in your lake to your bait....To be fair I'd be interested to hear if others have had similar experiences.
Bob
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   Old Thread  #156 5 Feb 2019 at 8.21pm Login so you can post / reply  Register so you can join in!
In reply to Post #155
Hi FPM,
I didn't mean any particular amino, I meant aminos in general.
I don't know which aminos MM is using and I wouldn't dream of asking him. It wouldn't do me any good anyway, because I haven't the tech knowledge to use them.
No, I haven't tried Feedstim's amino compounds and judging by your results, I haven't missed anything.
Yes, the enzyme was an amazing bait which showed the value of a superior amino feed signal.
My base for enz testing is indeed close to Pete's mix and addresses FLAA. That's the easy bit.
Thanks for your best wishes. We have put much time and effort into the project so far and are hoping for good things.
I don't know why tigers are so attractive.
Perhaps someone should ask MM.
BB.

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   Old Thread  #155 5 Feb 2019 at 7.19pm Login so you can post / reply  Register so you can join in!
In reply to Post #154
Hi BB,
What AA do you consider best in term of attraction I wonder? The thing is the list is changing constantly. It is mentioned that MM is playing with three of them. Which ones may I ask? Hara, Kasumyan, Wood ? Or Patric Mills favorites - Lys, Val and Gly? Or in between?
One of the P.Mills combinations is the S-Core by Richworth. Well, it works. Sometimes.
Yes, Iíve caught 6 fish during three hours on wild water once. Only once.
But how about the ďold schoolĒ most effective- alanine, proline, cysteine... ? In the field not tank conditions?

Did you try FeedStim Winter and Summer amino Compounds? What were results if any? I didnít notice any difference personally.... not between them but with and without them.

Iíve read the UCN thread. It seems it was a great bait indeed and worth of resurrection. If you try to repeat the success of this bait I wish you success. Sincerely. Just stick to Peteís recipe. Fishmeal is the right ingredient for this concept of the bait. .

Just keep in mind a Tigernut as a bait or a sweet corn. Both with low protein content - 8-9%.

I agree to disagree .... though Iím a HNV fan myself

P.S. and what about Spanish 2?
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   Old Thread  #154 5 Feb 2019 at 6.17pm Login so you can post / reply  Register so you can join in!
In reply to Post #139
Hi FPM,
OK, so pheromones can induce a crustacean to hump a golf ball.
If you have ever watched, close up, carp during a mating frenzy, you can see how powerful pheromones can be. They certainly ain't interested in feeding.
Not sure what this has to do with carp feeding triggers.
Anyway, if you find a molecule that can induce a stronger feed signal than an amino, please let me know.
BB.
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   Old Thread  #153 5 Feb 2019 at 2.01pm Login so you can post / reply  Register so you can join in!
In reply to Post #149
Hi scozza,
I think you summed that up very well.
What I would say is, think about sport.
I love rugby and cricket mostly, but motor racing, darts and snooker bore me to tears.
But I understand that those that love those sports are just as passionate about them as I am about mine.
So good luck to them and each to their own.
Re bait science, there is a trade off that benefits us all.
Bait experts and fish scientists are the ones that discover all the useful info that is at our disposal.
Without them, we would still be using worms.
BB.
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   Old Thread  #152 5 Feb 2019 at 1.55pm Login so you can post / reply  Register so you can join in!
In reply to Post #143
I'll hold my hand up and say I'm pretty sure I've been guilty of over thinking the whole bait thing...but finally after 30 odd years of almost exclusively using my own baits things are starting to make sense to me. I've always gained a buzz from catching on my own baits, it add to my enjoyment.
Problem I find is that people making their own baits are getting fewer and fewer. The mags don't carry many, well none is probably a better description, articles on bait making. FB is a waste of space for serious discussion so that leaves the remaining forums...so it's hardly surprising it attracts people like me..old buggers with a passion for learning more about boilie making and bait in general... please forgive us our obsessions if we get a bit too heavy
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   Old Thread  #151 5 Feb 2019 at 1.46pm Login so you can post / reply  Register so you can join in!
In reply to Post #144
I learnt to roll bait by being taught the basics by a mates dad when I started up back in '89, back then it was grab a bag of whatever basemix, chuck a few ml of a flavour in, roll and boil. I still roll my own not because I'm particularly interested in it as such, I'd just rather use something that nobody else is, and also because I like to use a variety of sizes in both round and dumbells together, buying off the shelf would mean buying a huge quantity to get it at a sensible price. Plus I don't have much freezer space so I roll mine fresh for each session normally, with just a tiny amount in my freezer for impromptu sessions. I just feel that all the science stuff people go on about, plus the time they appear to spend playing about with bait, would be better spent actually getting out there and doing a bit of fishing. That's what it's all about after all.. Also a lot of the science papers people refer to seem to be mostly regarding koi from what I can see, so not overly relevant at a guess?
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   Old Thread  #150 5 Feb 2019 at 1.35pm Login so you can post / reply  Register so you can join in!
In reply to Post #136
Hi Christian,
I don't dismiss any of your comments, like one or two on here who have said, re flavours etc. than they will not even listen to counter opinions. I try to keep an open mind and form my opinions based on the evidence presented. If an opinion of mine is proven wrong, I'm happy to change it, because what I'm interested in is the true reasons why and how things work.
Now, re your fishmeal comment, I haven't heard that said before, but my comment to that broad statement, would be, that it is far more complicated than that, because a fishmeal boilie is not a standard item.
There will be f/m baits that are very well constructed, using supplementary proteins to address FLAA and include complementary hydros which will produce a very effective feed signal, and that will prove to be successful all year round. At the other end of the spectrum will be a poorly made f/m with an unbalanced feed signal.
Re your attractor package, the scientific view on those additives is well known and says that there is little to nothing in them which will induce a food search response. Conversely, I have read many comments like your own where anglers have tested ingredients with comparison trials and are convinced of their results.
This is puzzling anecdotal evidence in the face of the science view, but I lean towards the science view and form my opinions around the products and chemicals that science does endorse.
Re my lean towards the science view, yesterday, on the fermenting boilies thread, MM gave the detailed scientific answer to the question he was asked re the growths on aging boilies. Nobody else knew the answer and seemed content to accept the explanation. Well, for years on this and other forums, people like MM have been answering tech questions on all matters of bait science which have mostly been gratefully accepted.
Now, product analysis is standard procedure in chemistry, and I ask myself how come science can get it right in most cases, except in the case of those contentious additives?
I'm not saying you and others are wrong. I'm saying that in my opinion, the weight of evidence is not on your side. I'm actually getting frustrated with these discussions, because I would like to get to the bottom of these issues and discover what is really going on.
Re your question about alternative hookbaits, I would think that when using your most successful baits, their feed signal is superior to that of the alternative hookbaits which would explain the success of the matching hookbaits. But if the alternative hookbaits work better, then I would think the opposite is the case.
Carp will tend to home in on the most stimulating feed signal.
BB.







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   Old Thread  #149 5 Feb 2019 at 1.22pm Login so you can post / reply  Register so you can join in!
In reply to Post #143
Does anyone else think some people think way too into this whole bait thing

Depends what your passion is. Some people love it

I take an interest but I know when I've had enough. It makes perfect sense to me to create a bait that meets the dietary requirements of our quarry from a lot of perspectives.

Catching them is something else
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   Old Thread  #148 5 Feb 2019 at 1.19pm Login so you can post / reply  Register so you can join in!
In reply to Post #147


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   Old Thread  #147 5 Feb 2019 at 1.16pm Login so you can post / reply  Register so you can join in!
In reply to Post #143
I agree with you ip100. There are so many factors, variables and unknowns in the equation. Fairplay to those that spend the time pulling it apart. I really enjoy putting a bait together, learning about ingredients and find it very rewarding to catch on homemades. For me the deep science part takes it a little too far, and the fun starts to reduce. But I understand that on the flip side, the deep science increases enjoyment for others.
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   Old Thread  #146 5 Feb 2019 at 1.07pm Login so you can post / reply  Register so you can join in!
In reply to Post #145
Yes FPM
Milk proteins and Pre digested, hydrolysed ingredients, free Aminoís, are another world. Iím only just looking into it myself.
Bird foods are tightly guarded secrets, the competition would probably be able to copy them if too much information was available.

I like your Russian bait input on here. Different countries anglers look at the same topics and end goal, from a different angle.

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   Old Thread  #145 5 Feb 2019 at 12.58pm Login so you can post / reply  Register so you can join in!
In reply to Post #142

Right. Whatever you want. Fat, salt content, ratios between ingredients, between aminos, non protein ingredients ...etc . The most difficult part of it is to find data of AA composition of ingredients and itís most impossible in case mixes (like bird foods or spice mixes).
Data of free aminos content is another lever.

S&D
I recall you question concerning milky proteins. There is another feature of their attractiveness to carp. Once broken they give some chemical cues into the water familiar to the fish. The right ones cues.
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   Old Thread  #144 5 Feb 2019 at 12.54pm Login so you can post / reply  Register so you can join in!
In reply to Post #143
Maybe overthinking, the holy grail doesnít exist, you are right. But we would all like to maximise our results.

How did you learn to roll bait ? It is a process of learning, trial & error.

You would think differently if none of your home made Bait caught nothing all the time.
But you catch carp on it.
You have an interest in making bait, clearly, that interest keeps us thinking alike on carpforum
This thread is just aimed at the higher end of possible attraction and nutrition in carp baits.

But like you know, it isnít the be all and end all.
we can catch on maggots & casters, tigers & tuttiís.

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   Old Thread  #143 5 Feb 2019 at 12.44pm Login so you can post / reply  Register so you can join in!
Does anyone else think some people think way too into this whole bait thing? Been rolling my own over 20 years and I haven't a clue what half of this thread even means. I just get stuff, chuck it together and see how it goes. More often than not it works well, my latest creation is by far the best I've ever made and regularly out fishes other baits massively. Seems to me people are looking for the holy grail of boilie but imo that doesn't exist.
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