CarpForum Thread : Ultimate Milk Protein base mix? : Carp Fishing Forum




Already registered? [Log-In] New user? [Register]	Want 11,000+ anglers a day to see your product or service? Click HERE to see how



Home	Who's Online	Member List	Gallery	Downloads	Fish Ins	Weather
Rules / Usage	Help / FAQs	Search	Articles		The Carp Shop

New Posts: 0

Ultimate Milk Protein base mix?
[Log-In] [Register]

NemesisWitch

Posts: 1349

#166 6 Feb 2019 at 6.13pm

In reply to Post #165
There was some long conversations between (I think) Harry Haskall and the bloke that come up with the ideas about S-Core that was published in one of the BCSG mags. Overall I think that the conclusion was that some of the theory behind it was a little flawed and the experiments performed non ideal.

I bought a bottle when it came out and similarly, found it of little use, even testing it in paste for bream and little carplets on the float.

scozza

Posts: 17132

#165 6 Feb 2019 at 4.35pm

Interesting what people say about S core. I was straight on the aminoplex / jigsaw liquids, made total sense. Around a dozen bottles later and it made total sense to drop it for me, not convinced, the theory is certainly there though. Can’t say it made a single bit of difference for me if im honest

viking

Posts: 1225

#164 6 Feb 2019 at 7.46am

In reply to Post #162
Hi FPM,
Very interesting about the S-Core. it seems from what I read that it is common that baits focusing on just a few AAs has a very varying performance. We have and will be using fish meal as the main protein source and concentrate about getting the breakdown right.

Butterbean35

Posts: 765

#163 5 Feb 2019 at 11.09pm

In reply to Post #157
Hi Christian,
Don't concern yourself with my frustration, because it stays at a constant, manageable level.
That's an interesting account and reminds me of an elusive carp that got caught a couple of times on maggots. And we hear the stories of carp lakes being drained and the discovery of unseen, unknown carp.
I think carp are not all peas in a pod and some can show behavioural differences, as Viking pointed out with the character and feed response differences in his tank fish.
Your theory of changing baits to try and catch elusive fish that behave differently to the norm may have legs, but doesn't really address or add any further evidence to support your side of the contentious additives debate. Yes, you may say your common was caught on a flavour, but most fruit flavours contain some organic acids which can induce an investigation response and together with a bright colour I can believe that can be enough to induce a pick up. I believe that is why bright fruit pop ups work.
Just to be mischievous, re flavours, you might remember a previous post by MM, where he tested 4 of the top flavours in two different bases over 4 years and found no difference in results with or without flavours.
I look forward to your thoughts when have read the UCN thread.
BB.

Fishpotman

Posts: 124

#162 5 Feb 2019 at 10.03pm

In reply to Post #159
Hi Viking,
The flux rate was the most difficult part indeed. Concentration in the water isn’t a problem while massive feeding with pellets treated with the solutions but a real issue for singles or a limited prebaiting with boilies.
Though the effective range boundaries aren’t too narrow for Lys/Val molar ratio for example and easily achievable during construction of a recipe it’s impossible to achieve the ratio for the groups of aminos these two AA belongs to.
Frankly I didn’t get any noticeable results with these solutions perhaps due to flux factor unsolved.
Neither I got with bait made as close to 1,5 ratio as possible (by itself). It was as effective as other HNV baits I made. Nothing special. Nothing close to “involuntary feeding”. It was just impossible to know the free Lys/ free Val ratio because of the absence of the such data for all basemix ingredients.

As to S-Core the bait it was very peculiar ... being very dependent on place and conditions. It was catching on a very small spots on both ponds I was testing it ignoring the rest places at the ponds completely.

Fishmeal has very close to 1.5 Lys/Val ratio. That’s why I recommended BB to stick with it in your experiments.
I suppose the Enzyme bait might’ve been so successful due to ability of enzymes inside to broke fishmeal proteins in quantities close to the ratio needed. But this is just a guess of course.
FPM

scozza

Posts: 17132

#161 5 Feb 2019 at 9.33pm

In reply to Post #153
Agree, lot of truth in that mate, even though there’s nothing wrong with worms. It’s people with a real passion for something that take things to the next level

MARKerz

Posts: 1823

#160 5 Feb 2019 at 9.11pm

Haven't made a milk bait since the late 80's to early 90's, can't comment on the newer milks, I would utilise Casein, Lactalbumin, Whole Egg Powder & Whey and go from there, add a cheese powder, yeast paste, amino liquid and flavour.

I suppose a lot depends on your bait design / making way of thinking as to ingredient usage and base-mix formulation.

Some say excess protein is wasted and not as biologically effective but there could be unknown feel good factors with regards milk proteins upon the carp which could negate this at times, all interesting nevertheless.

viking

Posts: 1225

#159 5 Feb 2019 at 8.58pm

In reply to Post #155
Hi FPM,
I believe MM puts a lot of thought into the flux rate when using his amino acids. As (if i remember right) in Mills research the concentration of AAs in the water is important and they are most effective in a relative narrow window. Without very good control of your flux rate, how much feed you put in and maybe also knowledge about the water you fish it would be hard to achieve the right concentration in a real fishing situation.
Most research show that AA mixes gets more effective the more complex they get, and even more so with not only the AA fraction included. In these cases concentration and flux rate gets less important with an improved effect with increased concentration, up to a certain limit.
That is why I have more faith in hydrolysates than a bait which depends on a small selection of AAs. Not only do you get a large selection of amino acids and short peptides but also the added nucleotides etc from the chosen ingredients. I would also think a bait depending on just a few key attractants will be more sensitive to different external factors like background smells than a complex mix like a hydrolysate.

Fishpotman

Posts: 124

#158 5 Feb 2019 at 8.52pm

In reply to Post #157
Hi Christian
Orange dye is an attractor itself according to Jay Rider rating.

christian

Posts: 1283

#157 5 Feb 2019 at 8.24pm

In reply to Post #150
Evening BB
I'm honestly not sure how to answer your post without increasing your frustrations, so I'll just leave you with an example from my own fishing. After a successful spring, summer and autumn a few years ago I had caught plenty of good fish but not one special common I really wanted. I had been using a fish and meat meal bait with added yeast and with a savoury flavour and hydro fish products. With winter approaching I asked a couple of previous captors of the fish what they had it on. I was surprised at the answer, they had both caught it on an orange fruity pop up. From then on in I swopped to a low protein birdfood with a fruity flavour and sweet feed liquids, and of course Orange dye. You know what's coming I'm sure, third session in along came the common. If this was just a one off I would put it down to coincidence but it's not, it's happened a few times since....you can wait an awful long time to catch ALL of the fish by staying on the same bait.....or if you include a combination of attractor types in one bait you might just attract more of the carp in your lake to your bait....To be fair I'd be interested to hear if others have had similar experiences.
Bob

Butterbean35

Posts: 765

#156 5 Feb 2019 at 8.21pm

In reply to Post #155
Hi FPM,
I didn't mean any particular amino, I meant aminos in general.
I don't know which aminos MM is using and I wouldn't dream of asking him. It wouldn't do me any good anyway, because I haven't the tech knowledge to use them.
No, I haven't tried Feedstim's amino compounds and judging by your results, I haven't missed anything.
Yes, the enzyme was an amazing bait which showed the value of a superior amino feed signal.
My base for enz testing is indeed close to Pete's mix and addresses FLAA. That's the easy bit.
Thanks for your best wishes. We have put much time and effort into the project so far and are hoping for good things.
I don't know why tigers are so attractive.
Perhaps someone should ask MM.
BB.

Fishpotman

Posts: 124

#155 5 Feb 2019 at 7.19pm

In reply to Post #154
Hi BB,
What AA do you consider best in term of attraction I wonder? The thing is the list is changing constantly. It is mentioned that MM is playing with three of them. Which ones may I ask? Hara, Kasumyan, Wood ? Or Patric Mills favorites - Lys, Val and Gly? Or in between?
One of the P.Mills combinations is the S-Core by Richworth. Well, it works. Sometimes.
Yes, I’ve caught 6 fish during three hours on wild water once. Only once.
But how about the “old school” most effective- alanine, proline, cysteine... ? In the field not tank conditions?

Did you try FeedStim Winter and Summer amino Compounds? What were results if any? I didn’t notice any difference personally.... not between them but with and without them.

I’ve read the UCN thread. It seems it was a great bait indeed and worth of resurrection. If you try to repeat the success of this bait I wish you success. Sincerely. Just stick to Pete’s recipe. Fishmeal is the right ingredient for this concept of the bait. .

Just keep in mind a Tigernut as a bait or a sweet corn. Both with low protein content - 8-9%.

I agree to disagree .... though I’m a HNV fan myself

P.S. and what about Spanish 2?

Butterbean35

Posts: 765

#154 5 Feb 2019 at 6.17pm

In reply to Post #139
Hi FPM,
OK, so pheromones can induce a crustacean to hump a golf ball.
If you have ever watched, close up, carp during a mating frenzy, you can see how powerful pheromones can be. They certainly ain't interested in feeding.
Not sure what this has to do with carp feeding triggers.
Anyway, if you find a molecule that can induce a stronger feed signal than an amino, please let me know.
BB.

Butterbean35

Posts: 765

#153 5 Feb 2019 at 2.01pm

In reply to Post #149
Hi scozza,
I think you summed that up very well.
What I would say is, think about sport.
I love rugby and cricket mostly, but motor racing, darts and snooker bore me to tears.
But I understand that those that love those sports are just as passionate about them as I am about mine.
So good luck to them and each to their own.
Re bait science, there is a trade off that benefits us all.
Bait experts and fish scientists are the ones that discover all the useful info that is at our disposal.
Without them, we would still be using worms.
BB.

christian

Posts: 1283

#152 5 Feb 2019 at 1.55pm

In reply to Post #143
I'll hold my hand up and say I'm pretty sure I've been guilty of over thinking the whole bait thing...but finally after 30 odd years of almost exclusively using my own baits things are starting to make sense to me. I've always gained a buzz from catching on my own baits, it add to my enjoyment.
Problem I find is that people making their own baits are getting fewer and fewer. The mags don't carry many, well none is probably a better description, articles on bait making. FB is a waste of space for serious discussion so that leaves the remaining forums...so it's hardly surprising it attracts people like me..old buggers with a passion for learning more about boilie making and bait in general... please forgive us our obsessions if we get a bit too heavy


	Page: 3.66666666666667 of 15





© Copyright 2002-2024 - www.CarpForum.co.uk	contact : webmaster@carpforum.co.uk