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   Ultimate Milk Protein base mix?
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   Old Thread  #77 3 Feb 2019 at 6.05pm Login so you can post / reply  Register so you can join in!
In reply to Post #70
Hi BB,
The bait manís mood is back to business unfortunately but he kindly provided me with two links to the abstracts in support to his approach.

http://www.scielo.br/scielo.php?script=sci_arttext&pid=S1807-86722017000100001

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/16733614/

And there is another point ... hydro is a food not only for fish but for zooplankton as well. Certain types of zoo may excrete some anti attractants he said.

At the same time Iím reeding a new RB site and that new Game bait contains 5 hydro plus an emulsified one. I wonder what is the total content of them?

My point of view is that there no harm in inclusion of higher rate of liquid hydros to the bait and to remain within low levels in freebies. Frankly iíve tried to substitute water or eggs in liquid part of my mixes with good results.

And I think Christian has a point about overdose in terms of gustatory issues too.

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   Old Thread  #76 3 Feb 2019 at 6.00pm Login so you can post / reply  Register so you can join in!
In reply to Post #7
Itís pretty much made to order.
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   Old Thread  #75 3 Feb 2019 at 5.58pm Login so you can post / reply  Register so you can join in!
In reply to Post #6
That would be the one.
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   Old Thread  #74 3 Feb 2019 at 5.11pm Login so you can post / reply  Register so you can join in!
In reply to Post #73
Hi Christian

Hope the data sheet was of help.

In regards to higher levels of free amino acids being of detriment to the carp's welfare, I can't help but having to be thinking that you are incorrect.( or who has been speaking to you )
The detailed analogy I feel was somewhat inaccurate in regards to the carp and more so in what is trying to be achieved in terms of attraction and detection.
We ( this is not my analogy) are merely trying to light up as many lights on the olfaction and gustation boards of the carp.
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   Old Thread  #73 3 Feb 2019 at 4.45pm Login so you can post / reply  Register so you can join in!
In reply to Post #58
BB
If it was only about attraction and nutrition then yes in theory then possibly you could increase the percentage of hydrolysed milk products but the carp do pick up our baits and eat them so taste has to be considered.
Now I know carp aren't the same as humans or other mammals but nevertheless here's an analogy for you.

Many of our foods and indeed other animal feed contain products that enhance the taste, this is to increase the intake. In farm animals this is to increase their weight to make them worth more and in humans its to encourage us to eat more (so products get brought more). In both cases humans and farm animals it is modifying the taste, not the nutrition, that causes a greater intake.

Now it probably is completely different in carp, but then again it might not be. Now one very common enhancer is hydrolysed vegetable protein. In products that we might add to bait it's found in Vecon, Braggs aminos and Magi sauce.

Now we would only add small quantities of these products to our food to enhance the taste, in fact adding too much could ruin the taste of the food. Do I think their is a limit in adding these products to our baits that would tip them over from being tasty to the carp to be repulsive...absolutely I do, even though the they are adding valuable available protein.

I've said this before I know but I want a bait that the carp enjoy the taste of, I have plenty enough attraction in their alreay, they will investigate my bait, the extra attraction from a few more availabe AA's isn't going to make any difference....but it might affect the taste which for me is paramount and my experience places a limit on the amount a hydrolised protein that shoud be in a bait.

Hope this makes sense.
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   Old Thread  #72 3 Feb 2019 at 1.51pm Login so you can post / reply  Register so you can join in!
In reply to Post #71
I used it from day 1 and i do know the enzymes were tweeked as the first baits they sold didn't do much and to be honest weren't very effective but after pete changed one enzyme the bait really came into its own.

I did used to keep bait in a cool box when left in my car and this bait was always still ok after a week very little difference to how i got them (i always could squash them in my fingers)

I did worry about the bait i took to france as i flew to my mates house and had no way of keeping it cool but that was fine till i ran out of bait around the 5th day, i didnt however let the bait dry out or leave it it the sun.
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   Old Thread  #71 3 Feb 2019 at 12.32pm Login so you can post / reply  Register so you can join in!
In reply to Post #68
Hi Woody,
I think Pete changed some of his enzymes during the time the bait was available and perhaps they made the bait more user friendly, but I remember Jaffa saying that he and his mates had to be careful in hot weather, using cool boxes, and that one time he put a couple of baits on top of the box in the hot sun and watched them break down to crumb.
Like you, they all said it was, by far, the best bait they had ever used.
BB.
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   Old Thread  #70 3 Feb 2019 at 12.19pm Login so you can post / reply  Register so you can join in!
In reply to Post #67
Hi FPM,
I'm with NW on this, in that it doesn't make much sense to me, and that MM would be able to give a diffinitive answer to the question of protein digestion.
The hydros we use are only partly broken protein. Most of them are not produced for fishing, but for animal feed and human consumption. They tend to have small amounts of free AAs, but are mainly broken to a mixture of different sized peptides, which still have to be broken to free AAs in the water.
Nevertheless, they will be easier for the carp to assimilate than full polymer protein.
However, we pay the extra cost for these additives because of their effect on attraction.
To limit the use to 5-10% if you want your bait to last a long time in the swim, is a choice you can make, but if you want a bait that is better than any commercial bait available, then hydros and/or enzyme use is the way to go, as testified by Woody below.
BB.
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   Old Thread  #69 3 Feb 2019 at 11.36am Login so you can post / reply  Register so you can join in!
In reply to Post #67
Hi FPM, it will be interesting to see what he says then. I'm not sure I'm really in agreement with much you've posted though.

I'd be very wary of extrapolating any data from juvenile fish, especially marine flatfish, and inferring those principles apply to full grown cyprinids. However, MystyM, who has I suspect a whole library of papers on this, is far more qualified to comment.

Hydrolysate... Just taste....???? Everything is hydrolysed to an extent, within one form or another in order for it to be absorbed into the bloodstream.
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   Old Thread  #68 3 Feb 2019 at 11.25am Login so you can post / reply  Register so you can join in!
In reply to Post #49
What i remember of the ucn bait was that it was soft from just after being made and did soften a little more but i never had it turn to mush even when kept in the boot of my car for a week in summer, and i frequently used it for week long sessions even taking it to the south of france for a week in summer.

It was a fantastic bait though definitely the best bait i have ever used.
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   Old Thread  #67 3 Feb 2019 at 8.41am Login so you can post / reply  Register so you can join in!
In reply to Post #49
Hi BB
The bait man Iíd mentioned has registered at the forum during our talk deep at the night. Unfortunately it always takes time to be approved in order to log in. I hope he will be in the right mood to continue in the morning but sometimes the mood might be completely different the next day morning after a good party. So I will be happy if he proceeds and explain the figures himself.
For the time being I may try to explain what I got out of it.

1. Itís wrong approach to regard hydrolisates as food in bait construction. They are used as to provide a concentrated from of taste (like Knorr cubes). So 5-10gr is more than enough for attractiion purposes. Hydros are very soluble and provide quick but short attraction.
Another point is high percentage of salt in hydros.

2 This Issue is more difficult to apprehend... The key phrase was ďAmino acid which are not used to synthesis protein or that are released from protein during degradation must be broken down and excreted from organism since the bodyís no mechanism to store themĒ. Some words like acidosis (internal), gut microflora followed but I didnít understand the subject. Nevertheless I tried to google some words and found out some scientific abstracts telling that applications of hydro in aquafeed 1) do change metabolites (long list) in fish tissue 2) at levels more than 10%of FPH reduced the growth and feed utilization but increase feed intake of juvenile turbot.
FPM
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   Old Thread  #66 2 Feb 2019 at 11.58pm Login so you can post / reply  Register so you can join in!
In reply to Post #65
If anyone else wants to view the data sheets, contact me via pm with your email address
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   Old Thread  #65 2 Feb 2019 at 11.41pm Login so you can post / reply  Register so you can join in!
In reply to Post #64
Hi Christian, the Autolysed yeast I use is high in nucleotides.
Don't discount paste, I use it alongside boilies as a vehicle of added attraction saturating the area. If there's nuisance fish or worse , diving ducks use 60mm balls of paste.
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   Old Thread  #64 2 Feb 2019 at 11.17pm Login so you can post / reply  Register so you can join in!
In reply to Post #63
John, no it's not the autolysed yeast it's the nucleotide yeast. I think Barocel is autolysed but could be wrong, is the one you have from biomax, if so I have that data sheet, if not.I'll pm you as you say, thanks very much.
I'm afraid paste does not work in my angling situation, I need the properties of a boiled bait.
Bob
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   Old Thread  #63 2 Feb 2019 at 10.51pm Login so you can post / reply  Register so you can join in!
In reply to Post #62
Hi Christian , I take it that you are referring to Autolysed yeast which is high in nucleotides. It's not cheap to purchase in small amounts. Your looking at around £20 for 500g, myself and Butterbean have the relative data sheets. Send me your email address via pm and I'll send it to you.
I've used Peptopro, 12% hydro whey , Autolysed yeast alongside other ingredients for a number of years. I have not noticed any negative effects using both hydro Casien and whey alongside.
I use it in paste and other applications, I don't make boilies with them though, for good reason.
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