CarpForum - Fishing Forum
  Already registered? [Log-In]  New user? [Register]

Want 11,000+ anglers a day to see your product or service?  Click HERE to see how
Home Who's Online Member List Gallery Downloads Fish Ins Weather
Rules / Usage Help / FAQs Search Articles The Carp Shop Fishy Forums
  New Posts: 0
   Ultimate Milk Protein base mix?
 [Log-In]  [Register] 
Butterbean35 is not surfing CarpForum at the moment
View the profile of Butterbean35 (Ian)
Butterbean35
Posts: 198
   Old Thread  #177 8 Feb 2019 at 6.30pm Login so you can post / reply  Register so you can join in!
In reply to Post #176
Hi KB,
I would imagine that those cheap baits must have contained something in excess which rendered them repellent, because, I asked MM a while ago about the attraction of very simple baits and the answer was that they can be capable of emitting a good feed signal, given a favourable construction, but that a good feed signal is far more likely when using the better ingredients.
I think, your carp ignoring particles to feed on the pellets and crushed boilies is evidence that they home in on the most stimulating feed signal.
Exactly the same scenario was described by users of the UCN enzyme bait, where in their case, the carp swam over top range, commercial boilies to mop up the enzyme. They then came back to eat the others.
BB.
keeperboy is not surfing CarpForum at the moment
View the profile of keeperboy (.phil)
keeperboy
Posts: 1597
   Old Thread  #176 8 Feb 2019 at 5.16pm Login so you can post / reply  Register so you can join in!
In reply to Post #175
BB we perhaps take certain ingredients for granted these days and most good baits contain, digestive aids, yeasts, amino rich liquids etc but what must have been in the cheap baits that those carp literally wouldnít eat!!!! The thing is, i saw a one ton pallet of those baits walk out of a show a few years back.....the customer feed back would have been an Interesting read 😂 my good friend is a fish breeder and we have talked about feeding two large tanks of his stockies with two different types of feed (maybe one pellet and one boilie) to see how they are affected or how they grow over the course of a month when fed the same amount of feed every day. He has noted that certain feed products are consumed then spat out, then consumed by others. He also said that when they see a new feed and that they consume it instantly and aggressively you know the feed has some mileage. Little things like this always spark my interest but I understand that hungry carp at a constant temperature in a facility isnít always a fair test of natural Carp behaviour. I have witnessed my carp swimming over beds of tigers and showing little interest in cold water, and even leaving peanuts and maples behind whilst destroying the pellets and crushed boilies amongst it, only to go back a few hours later and eat everything. I have never ever seen those carp refuse pellets, or crushed boilie or a maggot!
Butterbean35 is not surfing CarpForum at the moment
View the profile of Butterbean35 (Ian)
Butterbean35
Posts: 198
   Old Thread  #175 8 Feb 2019 at 2.25pm Login so you can post / reply  Register so you can join in!
In reply to Post #174
Hi KB,
I'm sure many of us envy your lake size, natural bait testing facility.
And it shouldn't go unnoticed to those who buy their bait that, what bait you supply commercially will have been thoroughly tested.
Re clogging carp up with boilies, that's one reason for home baitmakers to address FLAA in their mixes so all the protein can be utilised upon ingestion.
BB.
keeperboy is not surfing CarpForum at the moment
View the profile of keeperboy (.phil)
keeperboy
Posts: 1597
   Old Thread  #174 8 Feb 2019 at 1.29pm Login so you can post / reply  Register so you can join in!
In reply to Post #173
Also Iím sure we can all remember the photos of Gary Bayes with his wheelbarrows of nashy overs being fed to his day ticket carp, he was putting in hundreds of kilos week in week out and he told me once that he never saw them bobbin up to the surface uneaten. You do not need much bait to catch a carp and Iím an advocate of small traps and singles (bear in mind I should be telling you all to fill it in 😂 but I spent a while at linear watching the water level rise with the amount of bait going in (not literally) and I have never seen a boilie floating on the surface yet
keeperboy is not surfing CarpForum at the moment
View the profile of keeperboy (.phil)
keeperboy
Posts: 1597
   Old Thread  #173 8 Feb 2019 at 1.12pm Login so you can post / reply  Register so you can join in!
In reply to Post #172
I have only ever seen my carp refuse boilies once in ten years and they were a sample of a very cheap euro boilie that they literally never ate (nor did the birds), some weeks they see 40k of mixed overs (even in winter) mixed with cereals and pellets and they eat it the lot. This idea of carp getting filled up and not being able to eat anymore I have not seen yet on this specific lake where the whole stock can be viewed every single day of the year. And there are no other species but carp. However on another lake in the 90s I saw a group of lads fish with huge amounts of red fishmeal boilies all through the winter and the lake completely switched off. At the time we blamed these lads for ruining it but looking back Iím not so sure. It would take an extreme amount of bait Fed to a very small group of carp to ruin their digestion in my opinion. And I have watched a 39lb mirror eat nearly 3kg of richworh ultraplex in half an hour. Eating machines......definitely, clogging them up with boilies, I canít say that I have ever physically seen this happen yet. Letís be honest here how many anglers ever get to fish a lake where you can see everything happening? Most lakes we have no idea what bait has gone, whatís left, what they picked out and what they left behind. The syndicate Iím on we all know for 100 percent certain and itís why itís the perfect place to design and test and film carp at the same time. Like I have said on here before. It answers most of the questions simply because itís infront of your own eyes and not a guess
TCarper is not surfing CarpForum at the moment
View the profile of TCarper (Mark)
TCarper
Posts: 1270
   Old Thread  #172 8 Feb 2019 at 9.34am Login so you can post / reply  Register so you can join in!
In reply to Post #171
17.5kg of sweetcorn is incredible, lets have it right. Carp have capabilities, that we as anglers, or even scientists, do not even understand properly I'd say. A carp, is an eating machine. In nature, it is like this...

All fish are gorgers, without anglers bait, they are actually designed this way for nature. When nature gives them a food larder... It will be plentiful, and they need to capitalise on it. Try and get a bite when a blood worm bed is kicking off. No chance. They will smash it all. They have a switch inside their head, that mother nature put there. That switch, once flicked... They turn into an eating machine and nothing will stop them. Sweetcorn is like bloodworm, mainly water. They can crap it out, as soon as they eat it. Doing both actions at the same time, both as fast as each other. A carp can eat its own body weight in a few hours... Very shocking for all I presume. Only if the food being eaten, will pass straight through. Most boilies do not do this very well.

Carp are grazers like cows, that are built to handle big quantities of natural food at any point. They have a very simple gut, it's designed to get water borne food through it quickly. When we give them stodge, we inhibit this.

I wrote somewhere else on this forum when I first joined, about making your boiled bait filled with water, before it goes into the lake. Not 'washing out', filling them with a predetermined amount of water. This is why. It's more attractive to them, and you are actually helping them to eat it! When anglers think that carp are leaving bait for a couple of days.... Because they are clever... It's far more likely, that they just do not want another 'bellyache', by eating a load of rock hard balls!

It's all quite simple really.

scaley&dark is not surfing CarpForum at the moment
View the profile of scaley&dark (Darren)
Contact details supplied to MODs
scaley&dark
Posts: 3960
   Old Thread  #171 7 Feb 2019 at 9.32pm Login so you can post / reply  Register so you can join in!
In reply to Post #170
17.5 kilos of sweet corn is a huge amount of feed for a carp to eat, that Swirly must have been streaming it out


Is the simple fact, that filling a carp right up, so it does not want to eat anymore, is not conductive to catching them.

Or making more bait profit, LOL ! if anglers need to use LESS kilos of bait

I like to look back at the 70 & 80ís milk protein trend and information from the likes of, Rod Hutchinsonís Protein Mix, Geoff Kempís Ultra & Protein mix, Nutrabaits Hi Nu Val, etc, all great baits.

But then Nutrabaits Enervite & Lockey came along with the Savay seed mixes, Cheap, low protein, high fibre content, loose textured, high vitamins and minerals.... surprisingly carp liked them and everyoneís outlook changed on bait.

Think everyone is trying to simulate the old Sokol protein rich base mix, pumping out amino acids straight way and holding a degree of attractors back, but in a cheaper more digestible base mix utilising attractive protein rich hydroslate liquid.

TCarper is not surfing CarpForum at the moment
View the profile of TCarper (Mark)
TCarper
Posts: 1270
   Old Thread  #170 6 Feb 2019 at 10.08pm Login so you can post / reply  Register so you can join in!
In reply to Post #157
Bob, that post right there. Total sense that is.

We live in a world, where it's easier to copy something else, than to do it for yourselves. You cannot get stuck in your ways about bait, like the rest all do. Some times mad things work. I have the greatest respect for every single person on this thread. Even if we may not agree sometimes, at least every single one is trying stuff for themselves.

The bait industry mainly, is just one big copy cat. Fish meal, blah, blah, wonder bait. Rubbish.

One of the biggest understandings for a bait maker... Is the simple fact, that filling a carp right up, so it does not want to eat anymore, is not conductive to catching them. It's conductive to selling bait, but not always to catching them. The best, highest protein, amino acid laden, natural sugars filled, super boilie of all boilies... Is USELESS. If it fills them up, if it is to stodgy. This happens, and they do not feed as well as they can. Preoccupation is always king, when it comes to catching them. You need to 'make' them have it... And they will. They are eating machines, we should never get in the way of that with our 'offerings'.

This photo is a scan of a print, it's the Swirly common, from Milton Pan in Kent. It might be dead now. It is so long ago, I have hair (not ginger, it's the sun!) A Ted Baker flannel shirt on, and Nike Burt Bruins. Kids will not even know what Burt Bruins are I bet.

This fish, was meant to be so hard to catch, they all were in that lake apparently. It had the reputation locally, as a real ball breaker lake. It was just up the road from the 'Brook', where the British record lived. The Brook was packed, Milton was empty back then. A far more natural lake, with natural carp. I caught this fish in the edge. I fed this fish, 17.5kg of frozen corn. Another fish ate a bit. But this fish, ate virtually the lot. Carp are very aggressive creatures, they will butt each other when they want the other, to know something of that nature. The biggest, or near biggest fish in a lake, is always king of the castle when it comes to food. This fish, was crapping that sweetcorn out, as fast as it could eat it, on a shallow bar in the edge. I made two trips to the supermarket, and bought them out of corn. I caught that fish though, rapidly to. Swirly was very greedy indeed with corn. It could go years without being caught though on boilies. Understanding things like this, lead to better bait making.

You can't fill them up with stodgy boiled bait. If you do, long periods without eating ensue. Milks can do this a bit...

View post on imgur.com
scozza is not surfing CarpForum at the moment
View the profile of scozza (Chris)
Contact details supplied to MODs
scozza
Posts: 9548
   Old Thread  #169 6 Feb 2019 at 9.23pm Login so you can post / reply  Register so you can join in!
In reply to Post #168
Sounds similar to me mate. I am a big fan of the hydroslates.

I think it goes back to, do the fish recognise it as a food source, hence there are the more instant baits and the slow burners that once they are on it, they are on it

Suppose itís one thing having a whole load of aminos dancing around your bait but itís another for a carp to instantly be drawn to them, maybe we are playing over kill in a lot of cases and donít have a right balance.

The simple thing for me is our baits do not give the same signals as the waterworld does, aquatic life in most cases. We need something that they really want
NemesisWitch is not surfing CarpForum at the moment
View the profile of NemesisWitch (Nemesiswitch)
NemesisWitch
Posts: 469
   Old Thread  #168 6 Feb 2019 at 9.03pm Login so you can post / reply  Register so you can join in!
In reply to Post #167
I'm very much a fun of the AA route, just thought that the S Core was not much cop, certainly nowhere near as effective as the fish/shellfish hydro's, or the production of AA's via enzymes.
Just my view tho.
scozza is not surfing CarpForum at the moment
View the profile of scozza (Chris)
Contact details supplied to MODs
scozza
Posts: 9548
   Old Thread  #167 6 Feb 2019 at 8.47pm Login so you can post / reply  Register so you can join in!
In reply to Post #166
The amino one is a funny one for me, makes total sense but the results in the water donít to me

End of the day a carp has to recognise our bait as a food source or an attention picker. I have used all types of baits over the years and I wish I had a pound for every fish i had seen fish come over them and didnít even take a look

One of the better ones for me was the thick L030 and on reflection I swear that was purely down to the salt content, happy to be wrong
NemesisWitch is not surfing CarpForum at the moment
View the profile of NemesisWitch (Nemesiswitch)
NemesisWitch
Posts: 469
   Old Thread  #166 6 Feb 2019 at 6.13pm Login so you can post / reply  Register so you can join in!
In reply to Post #165
There was some long conversations between (I think) Harry Haskall and the bloke that come up with the ideas about S-Core that was published in one of the BCSG mags. Overall I think that the conclusion was that some of the theory behind it was a little flawed and the experiments performed non ideal.

I bought a bottle when it came out and similarly, found it of little use, even testing it in paste for bream and little carplets on the float.
scozza is not surfing CarpForum at the moment
View the profile of scozza (Chris)
Contact details supplied to MODs
scozza
Posts: 9548
   Old Thread  #165 6 Feb 2019 at 4.35pm Login so you can post / reply  Register so you can join in!
Interesting what people say about S core. I was straight on the aminoplex / jigsaw liquids, made total sense. Around a dozen bottles later and it made total sense to drop it for me, not convinced, the theory is certainly there though. Canít say it made a single bit of difference for me if im honest
viking is not surfing CarpForum at the moment
View the profile of viking (Sturla)
Contact details supplied to MODs
viking
Posts: 706
   Old Thread  #164 6 Feb 2019 at 7.46am Login so you can post / reply  Register so you can join in!
In reply to Post #162
Hi FPM,
Very interesting about the S-Core. it seems from what I read that it is common that baits focusing on just a few AAs has a very varying performance. We have and will be using fish meal as the main protein source and concentrate about getting the breakdown right.
Butterbean35 is not surfing CarpForum at the moment
View the profile of Butterbean35 (Ian)
Butterbean35
Posts: 198
   Old Thread  #163 5 Feb 2019 at 11.09pm Login so you can post / reply  Register so you can join in!
In reply to Post #157
Hi Christian,
Don't concern yourself with my frustration, because it stays at a constant, manageable level.
That's an interesting account and reminds me of an elusive carp that got caught a couple of times on maggots. And we hear the stories of carp lakes being drained and the discovery of unseen, unknown carp.
I think carp are not all peas in a pod and some can show behavioural differences, as Viking pointed out with the character and feed response differences in his tank fish.
Your theory of changing baits to try and catch elusive fish that behave differently to the norm may have legs, but doesn't really address or add any further evidence to support your side of the contentious additives debate. Yes, you may say your common was caught on a flavour, but most fruit flavours contain some organic acids which can induce an investigation response and together with a bright colour I can believe that can be enough to induce a pick up. I believe that is why bright fruit pop ups work.
Just to be mischievous, re flavours, you might remember a previous post by MM, where he tested 4 of the top flavours in two different bases over 4 years and found no difference in results with or without flavours.
I look forward to your thoughts when have read the UCN thread.
BB.
Page: 1 of 13  
  
  © Copyright 2002-2019  -  www.CarpForum.co.uk contact : webmaster@carpforum.co.uk