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   Old Thread  #67 12 Jan 2019 at 10.11pm Login so you can post / reply  Register so you can join in!
In reply to Post #66
Thank you very much mate. Yes it did weigh very heavy Gary. Massive relief.
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   Old Thread  #66 12 Jan 2019 at 9.19pm Login so you can post / reply  Register so you can join in!
In reply to Post #65
It surely is fantastic news about your mum, Mark. That stuff can weigh heavy, and will slowly wear you down. It certainly does put everything into perspective also. Time wasted bickering seems pointless in those moments. All the best mate.
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   Old Thread  #65 12 Jan 2019 at 8.43pm Login so you can post / reply  Register so you can join in!
In reply to Post #64
Thank you very much mate, it's very much appreciated. Fishing, and fishing bait is not the be all and end all. There are far more important things in life.

I sell them, I don't use the hook baits all year around, in every situation. That would be crazy. I use a bottom bait straight from the bag some times, I use tigers and peanuts a lot mid summer. Whatever the angling situation calls for, I will use. Most of the time I use them, but not all. Anglers need to use zigs, when the carp are mid layers or above. If you have something that will drag them down though in cold water, you tend not to have to use zigs. Only time I ever use them is when surface fishing at night mid summer with 15lb hook links.

I want nothing more than us to get along. I was just explaining to you, that often I cannot get on with people who sell bait. That's not sensitive mate, that's fact. It's not because of me, it's always because of them.



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   Old Thread  #64 12 Jan 2019 at 7.27pm Login so you can post / reply  Register so you can join in!
In reply to Post #55
Great news about your mother, nobody wants anything like that hanging over their head and it puts everything into perspective. You do come across as a knowledgable chap and I have been nodding and agreeing with many of yours and butterbeans statements in the times I have popped back into the forum. You are a tad sensitive though (probably because you are passionate about what you do) and on this forum I have learned the hard way that you have to take criticism if you are to hold your head above the parapet! Our views will not always be the same. There are many ways to catch a carp and it changes with the seasons as you know full well. Just relying on hookbaits is one way to snare carp (Iím doing it myself right now) and at other times particles, pellets, zigs is the way to go! Of course we can get along!! Plenty of room for everyone in bait world and I ainít fell out with anyone yet in 35 years of angling (apart from a fat kid at Claydon lakes who threatened to slap my mate)! And regarding curing hookbaits I think the first one I ever saw was a sting homemade 20mm cured in his butchers salt in about 1996 by a chap who got me into bait making. Did we know what we were doing......almost definitely not! It was to get round crayfish 🤩
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   Old Thread  #63 12 Jan 2019 at 11.18am Login so you can post / reply  Register so you can join in!
In reply to Post #62
Thank you mate, really appreciate your reply.
It's what I guess and how I fish almost every time, ie a scattered of boilies around the hookbait in the (supposed) right place.

I'm not disappointed of my catching rate in that particular lake indeed. A big deep expanse of water with rocky bottom and cold water for the most of the year, where the carp pass the most of the time in the upper layer and very rarely dive down to the bottom to eat. So, if I come to something that drive the fish in search of food on the bottom is more than welcome. This is something I try to achieve.
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   Old Thread  #62 12 Jan 2019 at 10.33am Login so you can post / reply  Register so you can join in!
In reply to Post #60
Thank you mate, I could have showed photographs of other blokes with big carp, forever and a day.

You still need free bait mate. I very rarely use them as singles. They will work exceptionally well as singles of course. Better than anything else. But it's much better to have fifty baits out there spread around a couple of rods. Carp will come in over an area, especially big pressured ones. They will NEVER start chomping food straight away. They will always survey the area gliding around above. Something in that area is kicking off things, that will actually help over ride this in built fear in them. Instead of surveying the area for a while, the competitive feeding signal is triggered in their head, instead of the fear one. They need to go investigate that object down there, before another carp comes along and takes it.

When you watch carp become preoccupied with a bed of hemp, or bloodworm for example. Their brain is in a different mode, they have lost that fear mode. They are in 'eat it all before my mate does' mode.

That's how they treat the hook bait. Even if they get away with it, they will try again, and again. They get hooked. I want free bait out there, so that when they do get away with it, which they will if they are cute. They can pick up something else.

They still need to be fed. Use free bait as you always have when using the hook baits. A feeding situation, is a feeding situation. A single pop up is a snatch bite. Feeding situations will catch you more carp.

Feeding situations with a proper hook bait, it's a licence to print big carp. Any type of bait can be used with them. They will work. I get asked this question more than any other. Stinky oily fish meals mid summer will work with the S2. Anglers think you need some sweet creamy smelling bait. Forget what you know. Forget what they smell like, it means nothing. Forget that you need to match these things up. You do not. We do a GLM-S2. This is the S2, with pre digested and GLM added to the base mix. Same cures. That hook bait came about, because anglers can't associate using a fishmeal with an S2. That's because of preconceptions before I was about. The carp bait industry is full up with preconceptions. They are not fact though.

Use them with anything, just pick a really good one. I would recommend Cell or Active-8 or Link myself. They are deadly with them. I've used Geoff's nut mix through my friends company previously with them, to great effect to. He cared about the bait he sold, so would get extras put in from Geoff. I was buying that bait, when I could have had others for free.

People who are flashing photo's all over social media, hash tagging big bait firms. They are among our very best and most prolific customers, in their own names to! Like right now as I write this. They become super hero's suddenly. How much bait do you think those sort of bait companies sell off the back of stuff like this? I don't care anymore mate. I just sell them the stuff, and smile when I see the photo's on others bait pages. But, they are using them with all varieties of free baits is my point anyway.

Part of the reason I am now associated with Mainline Baits... They have never done any of this stuff to me or mine, ever. They do not need to you see. 'Better bait by design' is the saying I think.

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   Old Thread  #61 12 Jan 2019 at 9.57am Login so you can post / reply  Register so you can join in!
In reply to Post #56
Nice Ken, I really enjoyed reading that. I like the betaine one. That looks very good.

Those chocolate hard coated ones you asked if they were still okay, they have that in the coating to. But it will disperse over ten hours or more.

What you have there though in your article, is attractors in free form. Not locked up inside a bait by egg and cooking. It may come off instantly what you have done there, but you still are getting a massive burst of attraction into the water when you cast that out.



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   Old Thread  #60 12 Jan 2019 at 9.14am Login so you can post / reply  Register so you can join in!
In reply to Post #55
Hi Mark
the result read in this post and the pics put on here show to me you are on something special with your baits. A lake fished by good anglers, dominated by a couple of baits, turned apart by your hookbaits is an incredible achievement.
What role play the freebies in tactical fishing approach in this scenario? Which bait can be used as a freebies to combine with, or are better fished as a single?
After fished years in search to establish my bait in the lakes I fish (luckily often I got it) lately, due the lake I'm on, it become impossible and the attraction in my fishing is vital now.
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   Old Thread  #59 11 Jan 2019 at 11.19pm Login so you can post / reply  Register so you can join in!
In reply to Post #58
And the lakes! Itís frankly embarrassing.
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   Old Thread  #58 11 Jan 2019 at 11.04pm Login so you can post / reply  Register so you can join in!
In reply to Post #57
Someone get these lunatics off the street.
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   Old Thread  #57 11 Jan 2019 at 10.36pm Login so you can post / reply  Register so you can join in!
In reply to Post #55
What a strange sport.

Thank God I have no affiliations to any company and use whatever I want. Doesnít everyone!?
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   Old Thread  #56 11 Jan 2019 at 5.05pm Login so you can post / reply  Register so you can join in!
Drawing attention to the hookbait

My take on it.

Enjoy!
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   Old Thread  #55 11 Jan 2019 at 12.26pm Login so you can post / reply  Register so you can join in!
In reply to Post #52
You have not offended me at all Keeperboy. Not in anyway shape or form. When I wrote that post yesterday, I'll let you into a little secret. For the past two months, my family have had a large cancer scare hanging over my Mum. Horrible couple of months. Part of the reason why I am even here talking to you lot in the first place, is as I've been 'around' all Christmas. It might have been the last family one with her. Yesterday I found out that she does not have cancer like they were convinced she did. Yesterday was one of the very best days of my life. If you think you offended me in some way, you are totally incorrect. I was on cloud nine when I wrote that post, and still have not come down yet. There is not anything at all you can say right now about some fishing, or bait that would offend me.

To start with, you sell bait and pop ups. Along comes little old me to your forum. I start saying things, that do not match up with you selling your pop up mix pop ups. I'm terribly well versed in this sort of thing. Do you think the reason someone moved from CC to Sticky Baits, and away from NS easy cash, was not for one reason. They stopped selling them in the numbers they used to. Wonder what caused that. I'll tell you. Two blokes in a tiny kitchen, that's what.

When SHB started, the year before RP was totally dominated by Sticky Baits and CC Moore. NS were the golden winner. Local area.

Over 100 carp were caught that year SHB started. Over 95% were caught on SHB, a lot by anglers whom previously could not ever catch them. None were caught on NS, none. Fifty anglers, the overwhelming majority from two bait firms, with their top consultants in the main to. He was using mine when he could at the start. All of the Sticky consultants, one after tother had to ask for permission from the big boss to use them, or they were catching nothing. They changed the new yet to be released Krill five times I was told that year, by people from within. And before it had been released, they wanted me to formulate a different bait for them. Only for one reason. S2's. Northern Specials went on a big decline, some one left the company. Do you think he would have if he was still making the dollar per sales for his name on the tub? Of course not. Oh, some of those Sticky consultants are twenty year good friends with the lovely man who runs Proper Job. Please don't bring him into your discussion with me. His pop ups are incredible, and I had used them myself, before I had my company.

Nearly every angling pro in the country you talk about is connected to a couple of firms. They all hate me. I would not go formulate their bait. And they also know, we know our stuff, lets just say far better, than all of that little lot put together, and they know it to. So they have nicked every angler, that they can, that has ever gone up on our little page ever since. We don't give away deals, and we don't sell a freezer bait, just pop ups. Anglers can still buy stuff from us on the sly, through a mate, or a girl friend. Others, are all trying to copy us in some way. Those two blokes in a tiny kitchen at the start. Like the big companies to. Next you'll be telling me you have been curing baits for twenty years, go on. Heard it all so many times, it just makes me smile now mate. Think about what you are writing, and you're quoting me and things I say. Not the other way around.

If that all above don't tell you something, nothing will. If you think I could say these things in public if they were not true... You are very much mistaken.

Yes I told you they will take my hook baits in over and over again after ejection. Yes it was a bold statement, but it was a factual one.

I want to be friends with you Keeperboy, but I'm totally aware, that we probably can't be. That's not because of me mate.



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   Old Thread  #54 11 Jan 2019 at 8.40am Login so you can post / reply  Register so you can join in!
In reply to Post #50
That's rich....
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   Old Thread  #53 11 Jan 2019 at 8.36am Login so you can post / reply  Register so you can join in!
In reply to Post #51
Hi Paulie,

It is very refreshing to read posts from someone who seem to know his unions, based on fishing experience rather than solely scientific evidence. I have been experimenting with single hookbaits over the last years and a found lot of additions who, according to the critics, cannot be detected by carp, to be working very good indeed.

I must say I am intrigued with the S2ís and made an order for two pots, I will try these alongside my own hookbaits.

Since you talk a lot of natural sugers, the following question raised in my head; How do you rate erythritol? This is a sugar alcohol which occurs naturally in some fruits and fermented foods like red wine and cheese. I know Frank warwick used an other sugar alcohol in one of his early baits (Sorbitol).

Best regards
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   Old Thread  #52 11 Jan 2019 at 6.40am Login so you can post / reply  Register so you can join in!
In reply to Post #51
Sorry Paulie if I offended you. I know who you are and what you do. The hi viz I saw get refused was a mainstream popular brand by the way!! If you really believe that carp canít suss your hookbait and will always come back and take it then thatís quite a statement and Iím pretty sure that we should all be using them and catching every carp that swims. Your baits have been discussed on here and other places before. In fact I know several customers of yours. Carp fishing is a personal view which is dictated by results. When 13 anglers are fishing and one catches he has got it right. When he does it the next weekend then he is onto something......thatís what all hookbaits need to be capable of! The world of science and experiments is out there for all of us
And if there is a pop up that has caught more carp than a ďproper jobĒ pop up Iíd love to know seeing as nearly every angling pro in the country uses his!
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   Old Thread  #51 10 Jan 2019 at 11.28pm Login so you can post / reply  Register so you can join in!
In reply to Post #48
"Regarding Paulie J hookbaits with multiple pick ups......his rigs canít be much cop if he needs multiple pick ups 😀.
I watched my friend catch a 40 that had approached his hi viz hookbait and refused it 5 times before swimming back and taking it on the 6th go! Generally from my observation a carp that actually picks up a rig and gets rid of it never picks it up again. But the next fish on the scene often does!"




Good one. I can answer it to, well you answered it yourself mate. The reason you see a fish eject 'your' pop up, and leave it alone after... Is because it's not one of Paulie's 'cured' ones is it, it's one of your 'cured multilayered' efforts isn't it. It's quite simple really.

Paulie's are carp drugs, they can't leave them ones alone. If they are leaving yours alone as you say, you are not anywhere, that you can be yet, with what you are looking to achieve.

The very best compliment I have ever been given, which has really stuck with me. Was actually made by some one, who has never actually used my hook baits, but had been 'effected' by them quite a lot at the time. He was a consultant for a very large bait firm, and used to catching the fish where he fished. But that had all stopped suddenly. (Sad face). He sat and told me, that I was "the scourge of decent anglers". (He was a full timer). When I asked him why, a bit confused, he replied... "Because you have given the bad anglers with no time, something to compete against the good anglers with, who do have time". He was talking about S2's. He runs a bait firm now to. That is my best compliment ever without question... Better than blokes who have emptied some of the toughest lakes around with them, have ever made in personal terms to me.

He will not ever know, how much that compliment has stuck with me. It took a lot for him to say that to.
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   Old Thread  #50 10 Jan 2019 at 11.16pm Login so you can post / reply  Register so you can join in!
If there was ever a thread that could encapsulate the definition of BULLSH*T, this is it.
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   Old Thread  #49 10 Jan 2019 at 9.13pm Login so you can post / reply  Register so you can join in!
In reply to Post #48
Paulie J approach is very encouraging for me as I am still a rookie in making boilies. His multylayers technology reminds me of Tim Richardson one with his multiple freezing and thawing of cured baits. Iím fishing at ponds without any carp fishing pressure and local fish donít like unnaturals like popups and 95% of carps caught by me are on bottom baits. Thatís why Iím so intrigued in his baits and looking forward to try them and see if the can make any difference with my catch rates on pop-ups.
Deep boosting baits is also a new field for me as my limited experience tells me that a good bait catches without any boosting. Better to say dips, glugs, spays adds to costs of a session not to catch rate with me. I suspect nevertheless that it were my laziness and lack of knowledge that provided such poor results and now iím going to learn and experimenting with curing and enhancing the baits. In fact it was one of the reasons I started to make baits myself - to understand whatís inside and how it works.
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   Old Thread  #48 10 Jan 2019 at 8.22pm Login so you can post / reply  Register so you can join in!
In reply to Post #47
Modern bait rolling.......find a shortcut, save 20p.....itís done! All jokes aside, I have been taught many things from a great bloke who certainly knows his stuff and his use of 3 or 4 oil combos caught an obscene amount of carp in the 90s (I think he held some unofficial record for 30 pounders in one season) and that has stayed with me. The other thing is I like making bait unlike anything else being used and for that you have to look backwards 20 years. All of my baits I home rolled had quality milks and decent additives and several had essential oils and they were really good baits, just hard to roll and time consuming. Crack open many modern baits and they simply ainít got them in! I think itís a field that was studied by the slightly older generation of bait makers from the 80s/90s and if Iím honest they made much better bait. Hookbait attraction for me is an art form, one that Iím always massively intrigued by because if you get it right you would never need to buy a boilie ever again (not good for my job though). The colour of any hookbait is important, the ability to pop up and yet leak attractors is important, itís ability work for 24/48 hours is the hardest bit in my eyes! I find it odd that one hi viz pop up I use literally out fished every other I tried 2 winters ago and yet this year itís the hnv cured and sprayed thatís done the biz. So many variables.
Regarding Paulie J hookbaits with multiple pick ups......his rigs canít be much cop if he needs multiple pick ups 😀.
I watched my friend catch a 40 that had approached his hi viz hookbait and refused it 5 times before swimming back and taking it on the 6th go! Generally from my observation a carp that actually picks up a rig and gets rid of it never picks it up again. But the next fish on the scene often does!
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   Old Thread  #47 10 Jan 2019 at 6.59pm Login so you can post / reply  Register so you can join in!
In reply to Post #43
Hi KB,
That's interesting that you seem sure that the major bait companies no longer use EOs, which suggests that they view EOs as non essential. ( pardon the pun ).
However, that would seem to contradict with the results of the comparison tests where EO inclusion makes all the difference.
Re boosted hookbaits, I agree that the purpose of them is to induce investigation and little to do with nutrition. Paulie J said as much in an earlier post that his hookbaits are intended to induce multiple pick ups.
It was suggested that they work better over a bed of feed, which, initially draws the carp in a food search response.
It certainly is a different approach to that of a bed of a well-constructed food bait emitting a strong amino feed signal and fishing the same over it.
BB.
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   Old Thread  #46 10 Jan 2019 at 5.42pm Login so you can post / reply  Register so you can join in!
In reply to Post #45
Hi Viking,
I havenít a tank or a pond with cristal clear water unfortunately. All I have is pond nearby with very low underwater transparency. Trial and error is my method or as KB called it ďguessingĒbehind the rods method.

Iíve tried EO and oleo separately and at the same time but cannot say wether it was effective or not as the bait itself was quite complex. Came to the conclusion that I need step by step method.
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   Old Thread  #45 10 Jan 2019 at 2.40pm Login so you can post / reply  Register so you can join in!
In reply to Post #40
Hi Fishpotman,
No, never compared oleoresins with EOs. Never done any serious studies on EOs either just done some repeated testing with 1 to 1 reference.
Aldehydes is mentioned, I quote:
"Many types of small molecular weight compounds are being investigated as potential feed
attractants for various fish species used in aquaculture. These compounds include organic acids,
sugars, aldehydes, alcohols, amines, hydrocarbons, nucleotides, nucleosides, betaine and free
amino acids (Kasumyan and Doving, 2003)


I have no real idea for inclusion levels for oleo ones or if they are similar to or far off to the essentials.
I guess that wasn't of much use, haha, but trial and error is key, ideally at a place where you can observe the fish, or in a tank. Tank testing of attractants is a bit of a pain thou, as the water eventually gets saturated with what you test and you will have to change the water often.
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   Old Thread  #44 10 Jan 2019 at 11.51am Login so you can post / reply  Register so you can join in!
In reply to Post #10
Powder
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   Old Thread  #43 10 Jan 2019 at 11.34am Login so you can post / reply  Register so you can join in!
In reply to Post #37
Absolutely I doubt wether the big boys would ever bother with Essential oils in fact Iím sure they donít (having inside intel 😉 and the other thing of note is that the majority of essential oil producers I know are from the cosmetic/ aromatherapy industry and have warning signs all over them. Hence why the over doing side of things worries me slightly. Years of looking has made me feel that anything strong/bitter/potent to me, must be used in small doses. As stated tho some anglers have gone willy nilly with these things and caught. I have a wicked powder palatant that we use and when I first trialled it we used 10 grams per kg.....I soon realised that was 5 grams too much.......however in hookbaits we could use 20 grams seeing as they donít swallow it. Could be the same for eos
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   Old Thread  #42 10 Jan 2019 at 11.03am Login so you can post / reply  Register so you can join in!
I have never done any tank testing but have done 00s of field trials of EOs and caught 00s of fish (carp, barbel, chub, bream, roach, tench etc.) on baits containing them. I have watched carp and other species feed on, and respond to, baits containing EOs and been able to assess feeding responses, repulsion effects and all the other important aspects of a bait's smell/taste (human terms).

My experiments were carried out on lakes from small to large in the UK and in France, as well as on French rivers. My tests and findings (crude non-scientific ones, I'm afraid) are outlined in part in SW Memories. LINK...

In short, I know what I see and I know what I catch and am happy to continue using EOs from a few preferred sources, regardless of whether the fish can 'detect' them or not.



@ post #36: Him...Yes I remember that well. In fact I recall one of the then bosses of Nutrabaits warning him not to do that!!! (Though I think he might have been trying to sell a blind).
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   Old Thread  #41 10 Jan 2019 at 10.04am Login so you can post / reply  Register so you can join in!
In reply to Post #1
Have a look at TH on youtube mate, best glug by a country mile is GLM, rock salt and water mixed up in a bottle.

Pour it over your baits when they are bang out the freezer and still crackling, they will suck in the glug to the core. Do it as many times as you want, use the solution for a final dip before launching them to the spot.

Most of the commercial glugs are synthetic crap made in laboratories that actually has a reverse effect on what you are trying to achieve.

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   Old Thread  #40 10 Jan 2019 at 9.30am Login so you can post / reply  Register so you can join in!
In reply to Post #38
Hi Viking,
Did you ever compare effects of oleoresins vs essential oils of the same origin? Iím reading about oils and oleoresins and see that oleoresins are even more complex in terms of composition than EO and affects both olfactory and gustatory senses.

There are no-terpen EO also. I wonder which main group of chemicals in EO composition (terpenoids, algehydes etc) is responsible for investigating and feeding effect?

At the same time water soluble extract of EO are used mostly in carp bait and are offered for baitmaiking purposes for clear reasons.

All these stuffs need various inclusion levels. I have an idea about the EO ones but what about oleo and extracts? BPO for example?
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   Old Thread  #39 10 Jan 2019 at 8.58am Login so you can post / reply  Register so you can join in!
In reply to Post #35
Yes, KB
I agree with you that the only way to test and understand efficiency of every single attractor is to test them on a some bland bait one by one. In fact Iíve got a plan and a bait of such kind for this season. There are 20 attractants and 10 flavors in the list of mine.
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   Old Thread  #38 10 Jan 2019 at 8.25am Login so you can post / reply  Register so you can join in!
In reply to Post #34
EOs are pretty far from feed oils in chemical build up and can contain thousands of components, some of which are water soluble to a degree.
As I wrote on the BF, a known feed additive from a large company is including essential oils and is used in very small amounts. I would assume the feed industry do not spend money on anything without effect.
My tank testing (like them or not) indicates that some EOs do induce food search and pecking. I would assume that a bait soaked in neat BPO would not be eaten, but probably pcked up at least once to be investigated. If the rig is right, away you go.
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   Old Thread  #37 10 Jan 2019 at 8.02am Login so you can post / reply  Register so you can join in!
In reply to Post #35
keeperboy - it is becoming increasingly difficult to find EO's even from companies that used to advocate their use.
Alot maybe due to cost of production making it prohibitive to use in bait, or quite possibly a fashion thing with the bait manufacturers?

In the boom time with alot of the flavours, mixes, ingredients etc - everyone was making own baits so were 'tweaking' their mixes to find the winning formula. Now, its mass produced rolling companies shipping out the same / similar to the anglers.

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   Old Thread  #36 10 Jan 2019 at 7.52am Login so you can post / reply  Register so you can join in!
In reply to Post #35
Does anymore remember when one of the Frampton guys had an outrageously good season, with a string of big fish, using Nutrabaits pop ups soaked, for the long term in neat BPO.

Totally against excepted norm, he destroyed em. his hookbaits were literally dripping in neat BPO, must be something in it ?!
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   Old Thread  #35 10 Jan 2019 at 7.08am Login so you can post / reply  Register so you can join in!
In reply to Post #31
I have definitely seen a great response to baits containing BPO and I know of another very good bait (by another bait company) that utilised bergamot oil. When you have a bait containing 21 ingredients that offers carp attractors, fats, proteins and minerals itís hard to decide what makes the carp locate it and consume it so consistently and trying to determine one ingredient (eos) is impossible. Like I said before, start with something bland, add eos and start making notes. Itís certianly not the be all and end all of carp bait and not all of my baits would have them, but the one I have most confidence in recently does contain bpo. Slowly but surely carp nutrition and eo use is being forgotten. I doubt that many companies even house any essential oils these days
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   Old Thread  #34 9 Jan 2019 at 11.39pm Login so you can post / reply  Register so you can join in!
In reply to Post #31
Hi razorback,
Yes, I have heard of several comparison trials like the one you describe and that is what I meant by strong anecdotal evidence. But like I said, if tiny amounts of an EO can have such a significant effect on attraction, then why can't science identify what it is? There will obviously be a scientific explanation and that is what we need to find.
BB.
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   Old Thread  #33 9 Jan 2019 at 11.02pm Login so you can post / reply  Register so you can join in!
In reply to Post #29
Hi KB,
Not sure what to make of your theory.
I would imagine that the haze you see from under water is the oil distorting the light refraction, a bit like looking through frosted glass. I'm led to believe that carp rely less on eyesight than predatory fish, although they readily feed on fry and small fish, given the opportunity. I imagine that in daylight in clear water, they can target daphnia blooms and fly hatches by sight, but in coloured water I think they use their chemoreception to
detect the aminos emitted by their prey, in the same way as they are able to detect a bloodworm bed at night in deep water. It may well be possible that water movement distortion by prey is detectable and can invoke a food search response. Re zig takes at night I can only think that they see the hookbait like a silhouette. A darker shape in the darkness.
BB.
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   Old Thread  #32 9 Jan 2019 at 10.43pm Login so you can post / reply  Register so you can join in!
In reply to Post #4
Plus liver , garlic sweetener Tec
Spirolina is a great shout
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   Old Thread  #31 9 Jan 2019 at 10.30pm Login so you can post / reply  Register so you can join in!
In reply to Post #28
Hi BB

Re Esential Oils. - the general 'accepted' norm is that 'less is more' and at high levels it acts as a repellant.

If something is not detectable then how can it act as a repellent at said 'high levels'?

RE #29

KB - A very knowledgeable former member on here told me that not all oils float, (especially Eo's) which are 'not an oil in its strictest sense'.

I have fished food bait (premiers Aminos) side by side with and without a certain EO included and the ones with the EO added outfished the plain bait biblically on a local runs water. Exactly the same as the former menber recalls his extensive tests.
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   Old Thread  #30 9 Jan 2019 at 10.01pm Login so you can post / reply  Register so you can join in!
In reply to Post #29
Or sense the movement of the oil through the water column, the theory isnít far fetched at all. Itís their environment and we know f all about them tbh
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   Old Thread  #29 9 Jan 2019 at 9.42pm Login so you can post / reply  Register so you can join in!
In reply to Post #28
I have another theory butterbean and itís one thatís far out! Maybe they can ďseeĒ oils! Bear with me now as this may take some imagination.
Drop any oil on water and you see the rainbow effect, it rises to the surface and plumes out and flattens off the lake surface. Watch it from underwater and the haze it gives off is clearly visible to my eyes from a distance. If a carp has spent its life looking for natural foods that move and displace water perhaps they are tuned into small water movements and the blurring effect that comes off oily foods. I have often wondered that perhaps as they swim through the haze (although hardly visible to me stood beside the lake) that the distorted water is the first sign that may alert them to food. If they can pick up the tiny water fleas swimming around and spend hours gulping down tiny bugs (like my fish doo in spring) then perhaps the link between eyesight and food vapour isnít impossible. Do natural bugs leave a haze we canít see, does natural buglife leave a bigger impression in murky silty water which they can see easier and do our baits give off more visual indicators than we think? Totally far out but not spoken about enough. My zig night captures on low stock pits have made my deep thinking mind question carps vision massively. Could carp see oily baits?? Itís possible
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   Old Thread  #28 9 Jan 2019 at 8.58pm Login so you can post / reply  Register so you can join in!
In reply to Post #25
Hi KB,
Your test waters certainly seem to be a unique facility in which to trial baits etc. in a natural environment.
The results of which would apply more favourably to a natural fishing situation.
I'm looking for somewhere similar for testing my enzyme bait experiments. A friend fishes a gin clear pit where the fish are clearly visible, so I'm going to twist his arm.
Re BPO, by coincidence, on the B/F, that was the subject of the longest and most contentious EO thread.
The B/F can't be accessed now, but from memory, the scientific evidence was lead by MM, who listed the composition analysis and stated that the small fraction that could be detected by carp receptors was well below the detection threshold. The scientific conclusion was that BPO was undetectable to carp.
Obviously, there is a strong, anecdotal counter argument, which, as you say, is difficult to prove.
What I find puzzling is, if such tiny amounts like 2 drops per kg are so effective, then surely EOs in individual trials, would show strong attraction properties.
I agree that any attraction is more likely to be an investigatory trigger and suspect that the same applies to boosted hookbaits.
BB.
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   Old Thread  #27 9 Jan 2019 at 7.52pm Login so you can post / reply  Register so you can join in!
In reply to Post #26
Bpo essential oil, I have ordered it from several sources over the years and my latest 2 litres came from a new supplier and itís slightly thinner but still bloody potent! I said on here before about a mate getting only one bite last winter on a 12mm bait soaked in 30ml of pure bpo.......it weighed 57lb and was its only capture
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   Old Thread  #26 9 Jan 2019 at 6.48pm Login so you can post / reply  Register so you can join in!
In reply to Post #25
KB,
There are bp essential oil, oleoresin and water soluble extract. Do you suggest to start with the oil?
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   Old Thread  #25 9 Jan 2019 at 6.13pm Login so you can post / reply  Register so you can join in!
In reply to Post #20
Butter bean
Our tank tests are conducted on 4 acre and 6 acre crystal clear waters and have been for over a decade. Itís much fairer than a warm tank and hungry small carp in my opinion. I am with a company but wouldnít be so foolish to blatantly throw our products at you or make you buy something I have no faith in myself. The spray I have the most faith in is based on minamino (thatís as far as Iím going) mixed with a tiny amount of 3 other liquids of varying viscosity and weights (that may be a clue to why itís so efficient). As I said, just using silly amounts of thin strong man made synthetic flavours isnít my idea of a booster as the dispersion is generally all left at the lakes surface on the cast. Iíd rather make the liquids adhere to the hookbait or tiny pva bag I use on most casts, or ideally Pre soak my hookbaits and ďcureĒ them in a 3 stage process over 3 weeks. The ability to watch a carpy reaction to any bait is mind blowing. You learn more in 3 minutes than you can in a lifetime guessing behind rods. So much so I have thrown away 80 percent of the crap I used to think carp loved! I travel so light now as Iím not weighed down with ďcould come in handyĒ baits. A carp can detect one 6mm trout pellet from 5 feet above so can they detect liquids, attractors or boosters? They sure can!
If you want to understand essential oil detection may I suggest you try a hookbait you have zero confidence in and apply 5 drops of bpo a week before you fish and try it again! Itís personal perception wether carp can detect oils and I believe they can (remember they are strong condensed attractors)....how they do it though is hard to prove. Maybe it just displaces the ph enough to provoke investigation
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   Old Thread  #24 9 Jan 2019 at 5.56pm Login so you can post / reply  Register so you can join in!
Tell Frank Warwick about this overflavouring business. He'd probably nod, agree, then cast out one of his potent singles and catch a fish to prove you wrong. Theory vs practice again.
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   Old Thread  #23 9 Jan 2019 at 4.06pm Login so you can post / reply  Register so you can join in!
In reply to Post #22
try a UB bait with the appropiate booster and you cannot go wrong
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   Old Thread  #22 9 Jan 2019 at 3.51pm Login so you can post / reply  Register so you can join in!
In reply to Post #21
I'd say that one or two sprays prior to casting on a single hookbait will not over flavour it as it is too low a dosage, and will also be washed off fairly quickly. I believe that is the intended use for the 'booster' sprays is it not? You've got to remember that flavours will wash out of baits once underwater too, so a slight overdose will be fine after a while or so, perfect if you leave hookbaits in for 12hrs or longer.

I do agree that constant flavouring will over flavour and potentially become a deterrent, however not all flavours have the same level for 'overdosing', that varies between recipes. i.e. not all strawberry flavours are exactly the chemical make up.

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   Old Thread  #21 9 Jan 2019 at 3.41pm Login so you can post / reply  Register so you can join in!
In reply to Post #17
What's everyones views on the various bait sprays to boost hookbaits, Northern specials seem to catch pretty much everywhere and have caught me a few fish in the past. However I believe the accompanying bait spray is the same strength flavour as used to make them in the first place.(have read Gaz Fareham saying you can use 3mil of the bait spray if you want to make your own cork ball pop ups) Surely if that's the case continually spraying neat flavour onto hookbaits will be way too strong !
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   Old Thread  #20 9 Jan 2019 at 1.39pm Login so you can post / reply  Register so you can join in!
In reply to Post #19
Hi KB,
From previous posts, I gather that you are connected to a bait co. and are able to conduct comprehensive tank and field testing, to trial additives and mix combinations etc.
Re essential oils, do you have any compelling evidence to support their effectiveness, given the negative opinion of bait science? On the black forum, EOs were a contentious subject that gave rise to many a lively debate and divided opinions.
Also, re your spray and powder combo, are you able to elaborate on the science behind it without revealing sensitive info?
BB.
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   Old Thread  #19 9 Jan 2019 at 7.06am Login so you can post / reply  Register so you can join in!
In reply to Post #18
Synthetic flavours be careful with as itís easy to ruin a hookbait. Just remember there are many many things in liquid and powder form that alter the ph of your hookbait. I have a spray that I combine with a powder that I have passed on to my customers and literally every single one of them said itís a game changer. My last two seasons have been awesome and itís accounted for 75 percent of the takes. However the science behind it runs slightly deeper than most think. Essential oils are deadly too regardless of what people say can and cannot be detected
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   Old Thread  #18 9 Jan 2019 at 0.07am Login so you can post / reply  Register so you can join in!
In reply to Post #16
In reply to Post #17


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   Old Thread  #17 8 Jan 2019 at 10.36pm Login so you can post / reply  Register so you can join in!
In reply to Post #16
What Gary said.

You are all using carp bait designed flavours in baits these days, that are strong enough to come through in a bait, after boiling. That makes them pretty poky. Start boosting hook baits with the wrong stuff, and you might as well stay at home, or cast a rig out with no hook.

Just because it is the 'right stuff' in a boiled bait at low levels, does not mean in any way that it is the right stuff to start boosting hook baits with, at high levels.
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   Old Thread  #16 8 Jan 2019 at 10.33pm Login so you can post / reply  Register so you can join in!
I think it depends on what you boost them with. Some substances are known to act as a deterrent at high levels.
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   Old Thread  #15 8 Jan 2019 at 5.24pm Login so you can post / reply  Register so you can join in!
In reply to Post #14
Perhaps it wasn't the boosting that made it spook, assuming it was the same colour etc as the free offerings?
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   Old Thread  #14 8 Jan 2019 at 4.55pm Login so you can post / reply  Register so you can join in!
In reply to Post #1
I watched a fish SPOOK off a boosted bait amongst normal free offerings.
Food for thought....
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   Old Thread  #13 8 Jan 2019 at 2.31pm Login so you can post / reply  Register so you can join in!
In reply to Post #12
They've probably morphed into a new lifeform by now
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   Old Thread  #12 8 Jan 2019 at 2.24pm Login so you can post / reply  Register so you can join in!
In reply to Post #11
thats reminded me i still have some active8 pop ups in glug since about 2000 sitting in my old shed building at my mothers house. hope i rembered to drill them first.
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   Old Thread  #11 8 Jan 2019 at 1.55pm Login so you can post / reply  Register so you can join in!
In reply to Post #10
i glug my hookbaits for months to make them the most attractive bait out there. Another trick is to cover them with the likes of Liver Powder when defrosting so that it coated the baits
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   Old Thread  #10 8 Jan 2019 at 1.26pm Login so you can post / reply  Register so you can join in!
In reply to Post #9
liquid or powder?
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   Old Thread  #9 8 Jan 2019 at 1.18pm Login so you can post / reply  Register so you can join in!
In reply to Post #4
Yes definitely agree. I spoke to Geoff Bowers and Paul Harrison at ABS about the same topic to add a twist to my bait. Iv'e been using ABS Malarkey for a while now, complete faith in all Geoff's baits as his knowledge is legendary in the industry. Their answer was to add extra Betaine. Never looked back
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   Old Thread  #8 8 Jan 2019 at 1.10pm Login so you can post / reply  Register so you can join in!
In reply to Post #7
ive often wondered this myself over the years, having access to layer pits over the years can be great place to fish rigs side by side and ring any changes.

having fished glugged/powdered/boosted etc hook baits alongside a out of the pot/bag bait i concluded it made zero difference.

what i did find was colour. some days white vs yellow would be 8-1 fish , next day it would be the yellow getting the runs. it didnt seamed to matter what the weather was though the best colour varied day by day regardless of brightness, rain or sun. i could never find the pattern!!
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   Old Thread  #7 8 Jan 2019 at 11.57am Login so you can post / reply  Register so you can join in!
In reply to Post #1
Yeah imo it's worth it, particularly in winter when you can't really expect to establish a prolonged feeding situation.
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   Old Thread  #6 8 Jan 2019 at 11.16am Login so you can post / reply  Register so you can join in!
In reply to Post #1
Yes I boost mine.
If your doing OK without boosting then carry on.
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   Old Thread  #5 8 Jan 2019 at 8.19am Login so you can post / reply  Register so you can join in!
In reply to Post #1
squid brand fish sauce.... super high salt content means it preserves baits for a while. not forever though
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   Old Thread  #4 8 Jan 2019 at 8.13am Login so you can post / reply  Register so you can join in!
In reply to Post #1
Do you guys think t's worth boosting hookbaits full stop?

Yes.

... is there anything else you can add...

Betaine, GLME, Spirolina, etc.

CLICK HERE!
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   Old Thread  #3 8 Jan 2019 at 7.24am Login so you can post / reply  Register so you can join in!
In reply to Post #1
I agree, itís a bit of a myth in most cases. To catch the angler....
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   Old Thread  #2 7 Jan 2019 at 9.55pm Login so you can post / reply  Register so you can join in!
Oil powders or sprays or glug
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   Old Thread  #1 7 Jan 2019 at 9.50pm Login so you can post / reply  Register so you can join in!
Do you guys think t's worth boosting hookbaits full stop?

I know some do in winter but not so much in the summer.

I have tried and not noticed much of a difference but is there anything else you can add other then the normal glug which won't make the baits go off?

Thanks all
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