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   Old Thread  #43 31 Dec 2018 at 3.17pm Login so you can post / reply  Register so you can join in!
In reply to Post #39
"When I get a little more time I will respond to your oils and sugars tirade in a way that perhaps will enable you to understand how it all fits together".

Thanks MystyM, it was not a tirade. It was my thoughts. Sorry if I replied to your friend and upset you.

I'm just going to leave this here. Two photographs of customers of mine. Both with new personal bests, both caught last couple of days.

I have permission to use their photos, so I will post them here for the sake of this discussion. One is a 50+ Uk common, from a highly pressured venue. The other photo, is a brace of big carp, from a no fishing urban venue. All caught, with many others, past few days. Now both of these blokes MystyM, and many thousands of others, tonnes, will tell you the same thing. You're barking up the wrong tree mate, if you can't produce such physical evidence as this at the drop of a hat. These two have had a great Xmas hauling big carp. Don't worry about having more time, honestly. It will all be lost on me what you're going to say, not being rude. What matters, really to me, is photographs like these two MistyM.

If you and Butterbean, can pull out photographs like this, from the past couple of days that back up what you say. I will take that as physical evidence, that I need to listen to you, real hard to. When you, or your friends come out with, lets call it random 'stuff', that i think is a load of twaddle, I will say. Soz. I will produce so much physical evidence, to back up any claims I might make though. Not old ones, like proper recent ones like these two.


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   Old Thread  #42 31 Dec 2018 at 3.13pm Login so you can post / reply  Register so you can join in!
In reply to Post #41
FFS both of you give it a rest sooooo boring on an otherwise good post 😧😧
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   Old Thread  #41 31 Dec 2018 at 3.08pm Login so you can post / reply  Register so you can join in!
In reply to Post #40
Hi NW,
You are perfectly entitled to your opinion of my credibility, but I will just comment on two points.
When you studied for your degree and then PhD, did you not use the ideas and knowledge of others, namely, your tutors and text books to form your opinions? How else does one learn?
I assume it took you 5 years at Uni to earn your PhD. Well, surely in 8 years of casual bait study you would concede that I would have learned something of bait science?
Anyway, you have not attempted to answer my simple question. I don't know the answer and would like to know how and why sugars are considered to work as attractants.
By the way, I too have an album of big pit carp, not that it proves anything other than it is not necessary to sugar your bait to catch them.
BB.
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   Old Thread  #40 31 Dec 2018 at 2.15pm Login so you can post / reply  Register so you can join in!
In reply to Post #37
Hi BB... Yes.... We've been down this route before so it is really very dull to go through this theoretical argument again and again on different forums, with someone, that let's face it, doesn't even fish anymore, whose ideas are merely those of others and reworded, and someone that was around during the developmental days of bait development but has only made his own bait over the past 8 years!

Yes... I do use proteases.... And as you know, I also use essential oils, and will continue to do so. You might not think 2 drops a kilo makes much difference... That's your opinion. My opinion, a bit like Marks, is evidenced in a photo album of big pit carp.
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   Old Thread  #39 31 Dec 2018 at 1.23pm Login so you can post / reply  Register so you can join in!
In reply to Post #15
"Base mixes that contain things that tend to ferment, and create sugars, like seed, nut, certain proteins that kind of thing... These will create natural sugars, magic ones."

Fermentation, in this context, does not produce sugars it consumes them, although yeasts can split sucrose ( table sugar) into its component parts of glucose & fructose , prior to the ongoing consumption of these sugars.

Some ingredients in their natural state provide sucrose, glucose ,fructose etc, salt will not affect their concentration ; but fermentation will, it will reduce or eradicate them

There are no magic " natural" sugars, all sugars are specific chemicals conforming to a generic molecular structure,

Proteins cannot be " fermented " to form sugars.

In reply to post 18
Whey is not produced by fermentation; but by acidic/ enzyme coagulation of milk


In reply to post21
Amylase can react with some starches to form maltose/glucose, in the context of this thread I would have thought a mixture of alpha and beta amylase would have been a better choice , anyway
much easier to just add glucose to your mix.

In reply to post 32

You cannot dismiss basic laws of chemistry/ biology/ physics as rubbish just because you cannot grasp or understand them and how they relate to carp fishing

When I get a little more time I will respond to your oils and sugars tirade in a way that perhaps will enable you to understand how it all fits together.
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   Old Thread  #38 31 Dec 2018 at 1.22pm Login so you can post / reply  Register so you can join in!
In reply to Post #36
Where to start?
To dismiss scientific research and methods is very naive.

"Some scientist doing studies on baby carp in a tank, has very little to do with us trying to catch heavily pressured big carp. The two just don't match up in anyway at all. The stuff these scientists say, is always the total opposite in reality."

"God" as you called him used tank testing to develop Scopex and other flavors. I would say that worked out ok?
Other pioneer bait makers did the same. This method is also used in the multi billion feed industry. Not as the only method, but in addition to to field trials.


" Your scientists say carp can't detect oils. Rubbish."


What scientist ever said that? This show you have not read or understood the scientific research on the subject.
Scientists say fish can not taste triglycerids, which makes up a part of oils. Then some forum "bait buff" read this as fish can't detect oils.
This is then repeated in typical parrot manner leaving half the fact outand the resulting myth is that fish can detect oil. The result is some other clueless person says science is stupid.
"Oils" in this definition including several thousand different chemicals which is oils in name only and of several which science has shown to be both attractive and palatable to fish.


"Your scientists may tell you that sugars have a low palatability rating, but I know different in attraction terms for the carp we fish for.


Science says one particular sugar (out of many) have low palatability in carp when fed as a single substance. Again, this is repeated by people without a clue and the result of chinese whisper is the myth that sugars have no use in bait.

Oh, and using catch pictures to prove a point is just silly, especially without any statistics to back it up. As you know, people catch on absolutely everything.
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   Old Thread  #37 31 Dec 2018 at 1.17pm Login so you can post / reply  Register so you can join in!
In reply to Post #31
Hi NW,
Nice try Naz. Turn the question around and aim it at me.
I simply asked in what way do you think sugars influence chemoreception?
I remain open-minded and have no fixed opinion either way, although I tend to lean towards scientific evidence as opposed to anecdotal evidence, given that for 50yrs, research into carp physiology and chemoreception has more or less, discovered every compound that affects attraction.
You as a PhD in biology will certainly understand the parameters of scientific validation.
What puzzles me is, if sugars have such a profound effect on attraction, surely they would show that effect in research testing, in the same way as AAs do?
BB.
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   Old Thread  #36 31 Dec 2018 at 12.24pm Login so you can post / reply  Register so you can join in!
In reply to Post #35
Works on every lake mate.

Every living animal/fish/human being on the planet, barring a few micro organisms, have salts and sugars in their make up.

To try and say that sugars don't have much effect on a carp, well. That's so silly to my simple brain, that it's unreal. Nearly as silly as oils don't. Whatever some bloke who wrote a paper says, however qualified he is. I'm more qualified in catching or helping others catch big UK carp, than them anyway. His tank tests and papers, qualifications, mean sod all to me.

Rod Hutchinson, Gary Bayes, Morgan, Bowers, Willmott... I could go on and on and on. Are or were any of them scientists? Not that I know of. Do they all know how to make a truly great carp bait? Of course they do. Did any scientist ever make a truly great carp bait? Not that I know of.
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   Old Thread  #35 31 Dec 2018 at 11.08am Login so you can post / reply  Register so you can join in!
In reply to Post #32
Yep.... As Mark just said.... Worked on Roach from 1990 to er..... Still!!!
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   Old Thread  #34 31 Dec 2018 at 10.42am Login so you can post / reply  Register so you can join in!
In reply to Post #29
Try chucking a little bit of icing sugar into your dustings as well Mereman, as well as what you already do. It will help 'things' along nicely.

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   Old Thread  #33 31 Dec 2018 at 10.06am Login so you can post / reply  Register so you can join in!
In reply to Post #28
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   Old Thread  #32 31 Dec 2018 at 10.02am Login so you can post / reply  Register so you can join in!
In reply to Post #27
BB, that just made me laugh, virtually as much as the one about oils not attracting carp either... Seriously, where do you guys get this stuff from?

Some scientist doing studies on baby carp in a tank, has very little to do with us trying to catch heavily pressured big carp. The two just don't match up in anyway at all. The stuff these scientists say, is always the total opposite in reality.

Example. Everything that carp find attractive in a big way, contains oil. Not man made oil, natural oil. You may not always know it's even there. But it is. And the fish love it. Hemp, tigers, peanuts, fishmeal... I could go on all day. Any seed contains oil... Super attractive to carp. Any nut contains oil... Super attractive to carp. Fish meal contains oil... Super attractive to carp. Natural oils. Your scientists say carp can't detect oils. Rubbish.

Example two. Everything that carp find attractive in a big way, contains sugars. Not man made sugar, natural sugars. You may not always know it's even there. But it is. And the fish love it. I could go on and on writing the same as above, but there really is no need. Your scientists may tell you that sugars have a low palatability rating, but I know different in attraction terms for the carp we fish for.

Physical example three. The fish below is 52lb+. When it was caught, I had ten kilo of heavily fish oiled up pellets and heavy fish meals out on a spot. You can see it is windy. I had an oil slick of some acre in size hitting the windward corner where the carp were sitting. I watched this carp and quite a few others, porpoise through the oil slick like dolphins, and follow it to my spot. Five minutes later I had landed the biggest carp I ever have. On a hook bait that had so many 'sugars' in there, that it's likely no more could be physically got in there at all. All the bait was still out there. It done it's job, and so did the hook bait. I did not want them to eat it. I wanted to catch them. And catch them I did. Oils and 'sugars' caught that carp for me.

Koi keeping, and baby carp in fish tanks, has very little to do with UK pressured big carp that we fish for.

So trying to use one, as a rule for the other, is a bit silly I think.

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   Old Thread  #31 31 Dec 2018 at 9.05am Login so you can post / reply  Register so you can join in!
In reply to Post #27
BB.... The paper you refer to covers only sucrose, and deals with juvenile fish..... If you don't think that any form of sugars attract, perhaps you'd like to explain why, and also explain why tigers work?

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   Old Thread  #30 31 Dec 2018 at 7.53am Login so you can post / reply  Register so you can join in!
Thanks for the replies all. Sounds like there are lots of fans of using active baits when they are starting to "ripen". The yeast mentioned and using sweet ingredients over fishmeal all makes sense. As a short session angler my baits turning too far shouldn't be a problem. Many fish get caught week in week out on stabilised hookbaits "from a pot". My thinking is that fishing a more active type bait on the hook is going to be a nice edge.
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   Old Thread  #29 31 Dec 2018 at 0.08am Login so you can post / reply  Register so you can join in!
In reply to Post #1
Add a light dusting of Brocacel yeast to your boilies instead. Chuck it onto frozen boilies and give them a shake to coat. This will add so much more to your baits rather than letting decompose in your bucket and you have so much more control. This is what I have done for the last two seasons after looking into the benefits of turning baits and its served me well. As I said before, you have total control rather than have a bait just right to take on a 3 night session and they are ruined by day two. Well that's my theory anyway..... Tight lines.
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