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   Old Thread  #285 20 Jan 2019 at 5.06pm Login so you can post / reply  Register so you can join in!
In reply to Post #284
And no carcinogenic aftertaste at all?

Then Iím still even more hard looking for my order to come
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   Old Thread  #284 20 Jan 2019 at 4.37pm Login so you can post / reply  Register so you can join in!
In reply to Post #281
Had the same thing, well over an hour for it to go
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   Old Thread  #283 20 Jan 2019 at 2.54pm Login so you can post / reply  Register so you can join in!
May the force be with you both.
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   Old Thread  #282 20 Jan 2019 at 2.39pm Login so you can post / reply  Register so you can join in!
In reply to Post #281
I got mine yesterday and yep, they taste superb. Not a clue what's in them to taste so good but I want some to make my own grub with.. 😂
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   Old Thread  #281 20 Jan 2019 at 2.33pm Login so you can post / reply  Register so you can join in!
Well, I received my order from SHB, very impressed.

Anyone else who has got any, before you waste them on the fish what you need to do is to actually try one yourself!!
On Josh's recommendation I eat one and WOW!! Took about an hour to get the taste out of my mouth and the smell out my nose. never had a bait do that before.
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   Old Thread  #280 19 Jan 2019 at 7.20pm Login so you can post / reply  Register so you can join in!
In reply to Post #275
Rich man you are!
Iíve got 1,5l left only
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   Old Thread  #279 19 Jan 2019 at 7.07pm Login so you can post / reply  Register so you can join in!
In reply to Post #278
I got some squid from Feedstim but have not gotten around to test it much yet.
I agree the krill is or was a cracking additive. Wish I saved more than I did.
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   Old Thread  #278 19 Jan 2019 at 5.58pm Login so you can post / reply  Register so you can join in!
In reply to Post #277
I like the squid, Viking. Steve at Shoreline Baits makes his own
I picked some up last year after popping along there. Nice and fresh, and he had two different types he was playing around with. But, yes, the Krill is lovely, your old NB stuff was cracking, as is the Bacarel product.
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   Old Thread  #277 19 Jan 2019 at 5.46pm Login so you can post / reply  Register so you can join in!
In reply to Post #276
I have got access to a similar hydrolysate. However there is some differences that I believe makes this less effective than the krill.
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   Old Thread  #276 19 Jan 2019 at 4.13pm Login so you can post / reply  Register so you can join in!
In reply to Post #275
Bacarel and Callum at BAF have none now either.
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   Old Thread  #275 19 Jan 2019 at 3.44pm Login so you can post / reply  Register so you can join in!
In reply to Post #271
Stocks are dwindling rapidly Ö got 5L of the old Krillicious left, in the bait kitchen
The good stuff is hard to find CC Moores have pulled Krill Amino Compound from their range of products, as itīs no longer being produced by the manufacturer, probably for the next couple of years.
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   Old Thread  #274 16 Jan 2019 at 8.21pm Login so you can post / reply  Register so you can join in!
In reply to Post #273
Hi BB,
Yes, I think I have to have a look at that. Last time I asked they was out but that is a while ago.
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   Old Thread  #273 16 Jan 2019 at 6.06pm Login so you can post / reply  Register so you can join in!
In reply to Post #272
Hi Viking,
The Krill Protein Hydroysate liquid sold by Bacarel Express looks a good bet.
It's made by Sopropeche who give a product analysis data sheet.
The amino profile looks good and it contains 64% of short chain peptides less than 500 Daltons.
For those unaware, Sopropeche make CPSP90 the best pre digested fishmeal.
BB.
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   Old Thread  #272 16 Jan 2019 at 5.08pm Login so you can post / reply  Register so you can join in!
In reply to Post #271
Yes it was. I don't know if that quality is available anymore.
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   Old Thread  #271 15 Jan 2019 at 12.44pm Login so you can post / reply  Register so you can join in!
In reply to Post #270
Hi Viking,
It is Krilicious... isnít it?
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   Old Thread  #270 14 Jan 2019 at 9.57pm Login so you can post / reply  Register so you can join in!
In reply to Post #268
Hi Fishpotman,
70 gram per kilo of the real thick liquid.
Never seen it spray dried.
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   Old Thread  #269 14 Jan 2019 at 9.41pm Login so you can post / reply  Register so you can join in!
In reply to Post #268
It will not be fermenting mate in the tap water. As Viking said to you, your ingredients are to light, and as Viking also said, probably to many solubles in there to. Slow them down a touch, and add some weight by adding some blood plasma. Good stuff for what you require, if you do not wish to cut certain ingredients. Don't need to go mad, and you'll ruin the bait if you do. Start at 5%.

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   Old Thread  #268 14 Jan 2019 at 8.00pm Login so you can post / reply  Register so you can join in!
In reply to Post #267
Hi Viking,
You mean 70gr of krill hydrolisate? In powdered form? Where did you get i? Iíve got it only in liquid one.
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   Old Thread  #267 14 Jan 2019 at 7.47pm Login so you can post / reply  Register so you can join in!
In reply to Post #266
Hi,
I had the same issue with one batch of boiles with a high krill meal content. After a while some of them popped to the surface. This was in summer. Maybe a combination of co2 from fermenting and heavy solubles leaking from the bait (mine was 7% krill hydro)
We put some heavier ingredients in and it was sorted.
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   Old Thread  #266 14 Jan 2019 at 6.47pm Login so you can post / reply  Register so you can join in!
In reply to Post #230
Hi Mark,
Iíve repeated the test with the pond water. 4 out of 7 ball rised to the surface after a day and a half being in the water. This time the baits were straight from the freezer, so the time till the rise were increased a little bit. No bubbles this time mate. But ... you were right... there are light ingredients in the mix - krill meal and a mix of milk proteins. Frankly iíd forgotten to add eggshell to the mix and been rather amused seeing the balls dropping to the bottom. But nevertheless.... something is getting them floaty. Fermenting?
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   Old Thread  #265 14 Jan 2019 at 6.18pm Login so you can post / reply  Register so you can join in!
In reply to Post #262
for pm Have sent you one
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   Old Thread  #264 14 Jan 2019 at 5.13pm Login so you can post / reply  Register so you can join in!
In reply to Post #262
Thanks for the PM and advice re tiger juice 👍👍
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   Old Thread  #263 14 Jan 2019 at 4.51pm Login so you can post / reply  Register so you can join in!
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   Old Thread  #262 14 Jan 2019 at 9.24am Login so you can post / reply  Register so you can join in!
In reply to Post #261
Sounds like they all have your number Danny. Bad internet times mate.

I replied to every PM last night. Sorry for the late replies.

You should all thank Karlos (I think) the forum owner. Don't know him, never spoken to him. But he's allowed you lot to all get a load of free stuff on top of your orders. He's allowed the Euro lads to get free extra postage to. No need to thank me via pm, thank him. If he pm's me his delivery address, I'll thank him to.
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   Old Thread  #261 14 Jan 2019 at 8.04am Login so you can post / reply  Register so you can join in!
In reply to Post #253
Theres a surprise, Danny talking sh1t as normal...
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   Old Thread  #260 14 Jan 2019 at 6.26am Login so you can post / reply  Register so you can join in!
In reply to Post #257
I think you need to mesh it. Danny will probably show you in Stinking Tackle 1.
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   Old Thread  #259 13 Jan 2019 at 1.25pm Login so you can post / reply  Register so you can join in!
In reply to Post #257
Danny gets to the park early to empty the turd bins.
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   Old Thread  #258 13 Jan 2019 at 12.34pm Login so you can post / reply  Register so you can join in!
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   Old Thread  #257 13 Jan 2019 at 11.24am Login so you can post / reply  Register so you can join in!
In reply to Post #253
Hi danny,
Pleased to meet you. I've got all your DVDs.
I wonder, had you thought of making a Thinking Tackle episode showing us how to use them?
Give my regards to the rest of the crew. They seem like nice boys.
BB.
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   Old Thread  #256 12 Jan 2019 at 11.12pm Login so you can post / reply  Register so you can join in!
In reply to Post #251
Will drop you a PM about something similar to this thread which I think you may have done before.
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   Old Thread  #255 12 Jan 2019 at 10.12pm Login so you can post / reply  Register so you can join in!
In reply to Post #254


I just hope Danny's fishing skills are better in real life mate.
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   Old Thread  #254 12 Jan 2019 at 9.33pm Login so you can post / reply  Register so you can join in!
In reply to Post #253
You should fish with dogturds mate, you'll save yourself a fortune.
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   Old Thread  #253 12 Jan 2019 at 9.14pm Login so you can post / reply  Register so you can join in!
In reply to Post #251
When the fish are on it , they'll eat dog turds.
Bait is overrated in Carp Fishing, obviously due to £££££ .
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   Old Thread  #252 12 Jan 2019 at 8.47pm Login so you can post / reply  Register so you can join in!
In reply to Post #246
I know Ian. I was ratty yesterday mate, it had been a long week. It's easy to take things the wrong way online, and I did. Apologies.
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   Old Thread  #251 12 Jan 2019 at 8.33pm Login so you can post / reply  Register so you can join in!
In reply to Post #247
You can lead a horse to water... But you can't make them drink it. I ain't the reincarnation of baby Jesus, and there's no miracles.

Sometimes carp are not going to get caught on anything, for various reasons. It ain't the baits fault. But so many anglers (not you), chop and change, and when they are back in with a chance of clumping them big style... They are using the wrong bait, or rig. Because they chopped and changed.
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   Old Thread  #250 11 Jan 2019 at 8.55pm Login so you can post / reply  Register so you can join in!
So they are need to get my eyes sorted. Sorry
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   Old Thread  #249 11 Jan 2019 at 8.52pm Login so you can post / reply  Register so you can join in!
In reply to Post #248
Yes they are, in the drop down box.
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   Old Thread  #248 11 Jan 2019 at 8.51pm Login so you can post / reply  Register so you can join in!
PaulieJ your crushed cork s2 pop ups look very interesting and would like to use them but there not listed on your site are they the same price as the normal corkball.
If I was to mesh the pop ups how long would they last and is a13mm able to pop up a size 4 hook.
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   Old Thread  #247 11 Jan 2019 at 8.01pm Login so you can post / reply  Register so you can join in!
In reply to Post #244
Then there are those that bought your product and had little or no success
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   Old Thread  #246 11 Jan 2019 at 7.31pm Login so you can post / reply  Register so you can join in!
In reply to Post #244
Hi Mark,
No problem bro,
I remember being ratty after a tough week at work. I know how that goes.
The bait industry will be as competitive as any other, and tribal as you call it.
Your bait being successful will tread on others' toes and create envy and resentment. It goes with the territory. I've seen the same scenario myself on carp lakes. Even blokes taking a swing at each other. One swim on my old lake got re-named ringside.
I suppose the saving grace is to remember that the vitriol is not personal. They don't even know you.
They resent your success and the effect it may have on them.
Keep it all in perspective and like you say, you can live with that.
Ian.
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   Old Thread  #245 11 Jan 2019 at 7.29pm Login so you can post / reply  Register so you can join in!
In reply to Post #244
outstanding
/aʊtˈstandɪŋ/
adjective
adjective: outstanding

Not yet paid, resolved, or dealt with.
"much of the work is still outstanding"
synonyms: to be done, undone, not done, neglected, omitted, unattended to, unfinished, incomplete, left, remaining, pending, ongoing.
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   Old Thread  #244 11 Jan 2019 at 6.12pm Login so you can post / reply  Register so you can join in!
In reply to Post #243
I've had a long day Ian. It's Friday, at the end of a long and busy week. I'm shattered, I just want to have a bath and crawl into bed.

If I'm touchy, it's for good reason Ian. I am so well versed in the bait game now, and how it all works. I've said it before on here, it's massively tribal now. I get hated by other anglers a lot, for one very simple reason. I came up with something which makes a difference. A real difference. I get anglers telling me all of the time, that they catch five times more on them, than any pop up they have used before. Blokes who will not go fishing with out them. They ain't getting them for free and needing to butter me up. They can't all be lying. People who I don't know from Adam, telling you all on this thread that they smacked somewhere, and caught all the rare ones to boot. I've sold pop ups to some of my real childhood angling hero's. The 'real' ones that don't need to do bait deals or the like. I've had good angler after good angler, tell me that all of the free bait gets left, hook bait goes first, and that they have never seen that before. I already knew, but it's lovely to hear from loads of others to. For every great comment, for every shot in the arm, like everything in life there is a bad side to. Anyone who cannot use them, because they are high profile and connected to a firm, well I'm not their favourite person am I. Not when some normal working bloke with limited time is smacking their tough lake up with them. That's human nature. For every good thing, there is a bad thing to go along with it. The more you stick your head up above the parapet, the more you will get shot at. I don't want to be famous for fishing. I just want to sell a bit of bait, be happy and go fishing. What I sell hook bait wise, is just better than everyone else's because of a process and the end result. Only I know that process. Of course it will upset some people. This forum is a great example. The only people who I have had any, even small crosswords with, is people connected to bait on here. Everyone else is my friend. People who sell bait, or make bait themselves even. They do not like me since I started SHB, right from the off. I can live with that. If no one cared, it would be crap wouldn't it. It's not. It makes people 'care'. When it first started, the bait company I was connected to, I offered 50% of SHB to the boss. He was my friend, and had the yard and everything to start it properly. He refused, told me that my cured cork balls were not the reason I had caught all my fish in a roundabout way. His bait was. They had cork balls already, made by Matt on here. They were not selling them apparently, so he thought no one wanted them. So I went off and done it on my own, with nothing, and used some one else's bait. Three months later, he wanted me back using his bait when it was all kicking off, and undoubtably realised what a big mistake he had made regarding SHB. You think that lot like me anymore? Of course not. LOL

Because I came up with something, that really makes a big difference. Some people hate me. Others tell me it's jealousy. I don't know what it is, but I don't like it.

Here's one for you Ian. Everything I've mentioned on this forum, regarding my own hook bait... I can do it with anyone else's to. I may have put all my focus into the S2 mainly, for my own fishing, but I can do exactly the same thing hook bait wise, with any bait. I could take yours, add some extra ingredients, which would change no colour or smell, put it through our process, which is what's really important. Then give you back carp drugs. In your bait, in a pop up form. I can take what you make, and put turbo chargers on it. If you fished it next to one of your standard ones, it will out fish it. That's because I know my stuff about hook baits. All those companies who brought out a maple/creamy nut type bait, after the S2. Well they are just playing at it really. They thought, that because it's a nut based hook bait, that's it. Bring out a nut bait, winner winner. It's far from it. They were wrong. People like that often are.

I can't do that for you mate unfortunately in the real world, but I could still do it theoretically. Cor, MM would be all over them like a rash I'd bet (smily face, joke).
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   Old Thread  #243 11 Jan 2019 at 5.24pm Login so you can post / reply  Register so you can join in!
In reply to Post #240
Hi Mark,
The phrase, " with your outstanding PMs ", was not meant as a criticism, but in reference to the PMs you haven't had the time to answer because, as you said, you've been busy sending out orders.
If I had just written PMs, the sentence wouldn't have made any sense.
I then suggested that like you, MM has been too busy to answer your last post.
Re the Cell, I haven't any particular opinion of its effectiveness, or the reasons for its success.
I'm not really interested in the commercial baits, simply because their composition is unknown and unavailable, so can't be subject to chemical analysis or comparison.
What I do know is that large companies in competition, use all sorts of marketing ploys to try and increase market share, and imagine that that bait industry does the same.
I take your point that a product, nevertheless, has to be very good to become a market leader.
Ian.
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   Old Thread  #242 11 Jan 2019 at 4.58pm Login so you can post / reply  Register so you can join in!
In reply to Post #241
Well said Jim, when all of the other companies nowadays in the main, need some one else to go in and formulate their baits for them, mainly Geoff's wisdom, but others to... Mainline do not. It all comes from with in. So who knows then really? Does Geoff know? Of course he does. Do Kev & Steve at Mainline know? Of course they do. Last two freezer baits I've used (through choice)... Geoff's and now Kev & Steve's. There's no flies on me you see, not when it comes to me using the very best of everything, when I'm doing the thing I love, which is fishing.
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   Old Thread  #241 11 Jan 2019 at 4.49pm Login so you can post / reply  Register so you can join in!
In reply to Post #240
There's alot of mainline bashers on here they all call them but I think proof is in the pudding look at growth rates health condition and the amount of fisherys that go strength to strength when they use there bait.

Maybe it's down to how they distribute there bait how one guy as one deal the next as another and the average Joe has to pay full wack in the shop. However even in the shops do deals on bulk now

I have used mainline on test for years have used it on syndicate deals have used to from testers, consultant friends and now I pay full wack from the shop I've gone from hundreds of kilos a year to prob 50k a session. I don't use that much bait now as im not on a fixed water just day tickets. this must be testament of how good it is.

I'm not saying it's the best hnv out there or there isn't better but I've caught everywhere on there stuff always have it on one rod and swap and change on other two.
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   Old Thread  #240 11 Jan 2019 at 4.07pm Login so you can post / reply  Register so you can join in!
In reply to Post #239
When you say "with your outstanding PM's" BB. You could easily say PM's, but you choose to say something else. That's the only reason why mate, so I explained that i was talking to the people whom I had not replied to. I did not want them to think I was being rude, that's all. I get anglers thinking I'm ignoring them all of the time. Example, we currently have 227 unread messages on Instagram, from after Xmas. How will I reply to them? It will take me two days to read them mate. After a year of SHB, we turned the message system off on our business page on Faceache. Go check. A lot of people will be finding it novel, that they can talk to me on here via PM, trust me. I get seriously moaned at about this, which is why I even mentioned it.

You get what it says on the tin with me BB. Twice I offered an olive branch to your friend MM, twice he disappeared. Yeah of course I know he's just busy.

I suppose you think that Cell sells so much, because of Korda, and TV. Here's a bit of factual information for you mate. Not theory. The first time I ever spoke to Kev Knight, I told him, if I had a pound for every time some one had asked me for a Cell cork ball made and 'cured' by us, I'd be doing alright. I get to see what every one loves mate, with no bias at all. I deal with all bait companies customers, all of them. I don't get asked for other stuff, I used to get asked over and over again for Cell, virtually on a daily basis at one point around 2014/15/16. I also get all of the same blokes, telling me that it's the best freezer bait they have ever used. Normal blokes. With no reason to lie to the owner of another bait company. Some of my friends, will use nothing else but Cell freezer baits, and they pay for it to. They could probably get free bait elsewhere if they tried.

Of course Korda or TV will help massively, but without the bait being what it needs to be, it does not become the biggest seller/catcher for just that reason alone. If it's crap, it's crap. And everyone will soon find out don't you worry about that. Anyone who says Cell is crap, has a vested interest in something else, and wished they had the biggest selling/catching bait of all time in the UK. Simple.
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   Old Thread  #239 11 Jan 2019 at 3.04pm Login so you can post / reply  Register so you can join in!
In reply to Post #236
Hi Mark,
You seem to have seen implications in my post that are simply not there.
It was fairly innocuous with a touch of humour.
Re your outstanding PMs, I was just pointing out that MM is probably as busy as you to be able to action everything in a favourable time frame.
Why on earth would it upset me if you have outstanding PMs?
Re the Cell, I asked if it was also the biggest seller, because that adds qualifying info to the original bare statistic. If it has become the most successful commercial bait, I would think there are other contributing factors involved, rather than anglers just catching plenty of fish using it.
Anyway, I did say I knew it was a simple statement made in order to help a new member and credit to you for that.
I would have thought by now Mark, that you could see that, with me, you get exactly what it says on the tin.
Ian.
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   Old Thread  #238 11 Jan 2019 at 2.35pm Login so you can post / reply  Register so you can join in!
In reply to Post #236
Have to agree with that, there has to be more to the cell than just the volume sold, of course it's not the only bait that will catch carp, but if you are just starting out or confused by the vast amount of different baits out there then cell is a fantastic bait wherever you take it.
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   Old Thread  #237 11 Jan 2019 at 1.47pm Login so you can post / reply  Register so you can join in!
In reply to Post #236
What about the popularity of Cell on the continent - comparable to the UK? On my own pits in Germany hardly an angler uses cell, but i am not aware of the sales figures in Europe.
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   Old Thread  #236 11 Jan 2019 at 1.27pm Login so you can post / reply  Register so you can join in!
In reply to Post #234
Ouuuuuuu BB, talking about your mate drew you back look. My outstanding PM's? . I was just talking to all the people who have PM'd me BB, you might see one of them put a thumbs up just after I posted it. He could tell you, and many others I have not replied to any of them yet. I have to many PM's to reply to mate at the moment. I hope it does not upset you, it should not.

Yes more Cell has been sold than anything else BB. Do you know why? Or do you need me to explain it to you? It's because when anglers go fishing with the Cell, they catch loads of fish.

I tried to explain this to you and your mate earlier. When something is exceptional, you will sell a lot of it. If you have a large company today with a big advertising budget, it helps a lot. Internet chatter, is internet chatter. Anyone who has the real deal, you'd be making money from it. Or some one would have you making a lot of money for them. Carp fishing and bait is big business these days if you had not noticed. If a bait is no good, anglers will use it for a while and jog on. If something is the biggest seller, and biggest catcher of all time, it's for a reason.

Internet bait guru's may wish that it's just down to advertising, and otherwise they themselves would have the best stuff sliced sliced bread. But it's not true. It's just wishful thinking. Yes you can start a bait company and do well if you have millions to start with nowadays and want to buy all the better anglers. But if you are going to start one from nothing, you need the real deal. I've had people who want to get 'into it all', who want to buy my company. More than one.

The Cell is the biggest selling bait, because it is the biggest ever catcher of carp in the UK. It would never have happened, if both were not the case.
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   Old Thread  #235 11 Jan 2019 at 12.52pm Login so you can post / reply  Register so you can join in!
In reply to Post #234
I wonder whether it is also the case that far more Cell has been sold than any other bait?

Of course
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   Old Thread  #234 11 Jan 2019 at 12.51pm Login so you can post / reply  Register so you can join in!
In reply to Post #232
Hi Mark, ( or would you prefer Pauline? ).
I'm sure you and MM will become internet friends. He may just be playing hard to get.
Or, more likely, he runs a busy schedule and like you with your outstanding PMs, has to fit everything in where he can.
Re your assertion that Cell has caught more carp than any other freezer bait, I wonder whether it is also the case that far more Cell has been sold than any other bait?
Anyway, I understand the point was to suggest a successful bait to the new member.
Ian.
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   Old Thread  #233 11 Jan 2019 at 12.04pm Login so you can post / reply  Register so you can join in!
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   Old Thread  #232 11 Jan 2019 at 12.00pm Login so you can post / reply  Register so you can join in!
In reply to Post #231
Me to. I thought me and MM were going to be internet friends.

To everyone else whom has ordered anything, a lot has gone out today and will be there tomorrow, the rest is going out Monday and Tuesday. Your orders are all intertwined with a hell of a lot of others that are not from this forum. I have spent two hours this morning looking at PM's, and chucking free stuff in for you all. You cost me a fortune LOL. I will reply to every PM at some point, but I physically cannot yet. It's not me being rude I promise. The Euro lads, yours has all gone today, you cost me a fortune to you scoundrels.
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   Old Thread  #231 11 Jan 2019 at 10.49am Login so you can post / reply  Register so you can join in!
In reply to Post #154
I am looking forward to your elaboration about the oils.

Best regards

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   Old Thread  #230 11 Jan 2019 at 10.13am Login so you can post / reply  Register so you can join in!
In reply to Post #228
Don't use tap water to test anything like that, unless it has sat on the side for a night, it has so much dissolved oxogen in it.

When your bait is popping up, all of the bubbles will have attached to the bait. Do it again and watch, it's all these tiny little bubbles that lift the bait. Normally these will all rise to the surface, if there is a bait in there they will attach to that instead. A bait will only rise, once it has started decomposing. Or if you have some very light ingredients.
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   Old Thread  #229 11 Jan 2019 at 7.39am Login so you can post / reply  Register so you can join in!
In reply to Post #225
The one time Iíve ever sent a sensible post and predictive text ****s it for me.

Just reading back through these posts about sweating up your baits do you think it would be better described as being Ď ripe Ď , itís like a piece of fruit that is at its maximum sweetness and is just about to start deteriorating, weíve all seen wasps around fruit and berry trees at certain times of year Iím sure itís a similar situation.
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   Old Thread  #228 11 Jan 2019 at 6.02am Login so you can post / reply  Register so you can join in!
In reply to Post #227
Hi mate
I will send you some if it catch anything.

Iíve got another wonder one. May be you can explain what is going wrong with a bait when it comes to the surface after a day in the water at the bottom. Bottom bait turning into popup huh?
Tap water, room temperature...
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   Old Thread  #227 10 Jan 2019 at 11.33pm Login so you can post / reply  Register so you can join in!
In reply to Post #216
Hi mate. Can I use your bait? It sounds nice
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   Old Thread  #226 10 Jan 2019 at 10.41pm Login so you can post / reply  Register so you can join in!
In reply to Post #222
Don't listen to what 'they' all tell you, half of it is rubbish. Go on what you know is a fact. Cell has caught more carp, than any freezer bait ever constructed. Can't really go wrong can you. That will work all year around to.

Sweet corn, tigers and hemp will catch you bundles mate
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   Old Thread  #225 10 Jan 2019 at 10.38pm Login so you can post / reply  Register so you can join in!
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I think Pauline is a very lovely name. I would in no way mind being called Pauline.
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   Old Thread  #224 10 Jan 2019 at 7.37pm Login so you can post / reply  Register so you can join in!
In reply to Post #223
I think the mixing of the two was probably a sales ploy, I know some old hands at the bait game, some of them very successful anglers, not one of them would dream of using a shelf life bait.
We used the grange when it first came out and I was told to let it sweat up.
I fished a lake one evening and got on some fish and had three twenties in 3 hours which would make my day now so you can imagine what it was like back then.
I went back the following day but the bait had lost Ď that Ď look and smell, same swim fish were still in there and could not buy a bite, the bait had gone to far.
We took the grange to the river lea and fed it to the barbel under a tree, they went nuts on it in its prime sticky condition, took the same bag back two days later they showed a bit of interest but I only saw one bait get eaten.
Defiinetly something in it.

Anybody know Paulineís real name ?
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   Old Thread  #223 10 Jan 2019 at 6.09pm Login so you can post / reply  Register so you can join in!
I spent a couple of years recently playing around with shelf lifes, versus freezer baits after Gary Bayes and Shaun Harrison commended them. Gary Bayes recommended a mix of the two, freezer and shelfies.

With the shelf lifes, if I mixed them with freezer baits, I would or could catch on day 1 or 2 with shelfies. If I fished day 3 or 4 the what were frozen baits would start outfishing them.

I then, in an attempt to save space in my home freezer, used shelf lifes exclusively for a year or two. My catch results dropped big time on my syndicate water, but on the day ticket runs water I still caught.

I also played with baits air dried with no preservatives in them, compared to freezer baits. I noticed when I air dried them that I went past the sticky sweet state to dry, without mould. These air dried baits were effective, more so I think than shelf life. However, I personally noticed that air dried baits went soft faster than frozen baits, I think because they took water on faster. If you used them on the hook, you had to drill them to get them onto the hair, and mesh them to stop them coming off the hair.

Years ago Ken T recommended Trigga being at its best after it turned white and sticky, I think Grange CSL was also mentioned in the same article. I concur, Trigga was awesome slightly turned, with the white sugars etc on the surface.

There is a massive difference between the sticky white sugars and mould on the surface, and actual mouldy baits can be ignored. Also I found some baits that had a slightly 'off bacon' smell that were turning were not as effective as sickly sweet smelling turning baits.

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   Old Thread  #222 10 Jan 2019 at 4.33pm Login so you can post / reply  Register so you can join in!
In reply to Post #221
Hi

thanks so much for that I sort of panicked reading all that information it was a bit mind blowing so I need to re set the brain, the other thing is there are so many bait firms that tell you they are the best so its still confusing to pick one and stick with it I don't want to be buying different baits
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   Old Thread  #221 10 Jan 2019 at 4.24pm Login so you can post / reply  Register so you can join in!
In reply to Post #217
No mate, you don't need them. You need sweet corn, hemp, tiger nuts, and a great off the shelf freezer bait.A tub of shop bought pop ups. Mainline Pineapples are wicked.

You'll catch untold, you really don't need anything more. I designed the hook baits being spoken about here more recently in this thread, for great big lakes, and some of the most tricky/busy smaller lakes in the country. For myself and my own fishing, nothing to do with money. Fishing. I did not need any special hook baits when I had been fishing as long as you mate, and nor do you.

Please do not take offence at that. I could tell you different, and probably make some money from you.

Don't want to.

I've written plenty on this forum already in a short time, that has nothing to do with special hook baits, or any fancy boiled bait. That's the stuff you should read mate and take in. Learn to fish hemp and corn well on a very well stocked lake, you'll catch as many fish or more than anyone. Of course the hook baits will work, but you'd be spending a load of money that you do not need to.

The hook baits were designed for carp that see lots of pressure really. Send me a message in five years if you still love it, I'll give you something that will help you no end, when you are fishing somewhere where you are as much against other anglers, as you are the fish.


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   Old Thread  #220 10 Jan 2019 at 4.04pm Login so you can post / reply  Register so you can join in!
In reply to Post #213
the two baits that really worked for me when they started to ferment were richworth tutie fruites and tails up potovit liver.

the tuties id defrost and leave on the radiator for few days and they would turn sticky and smell devine. always seamed to better with these than when they where straight out the freezer.

the protovit liver would go white within 36 hours normally and again i always had better results when they were like this,
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   Old Thread  #219 10 Jan 2019 at 4.02pm Login so you can post / reply  Register so you can join in!
In reply to Post #218
Sound advice.....
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   Old Thread  #218 10 Jan 2019 at 2.44pm Login so you can post / reply  Register so you can join in!
In reply to Post #217
Nope to start with a bait straight off the shelf will catch you fish and take alot of the hard work out of it. But don't get caught up with all the hype as things you used to use will still work pellet corn worm etc
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   Old Thread  #217 10 Jan 2019 at 2.41pm Login so you can post / reply  Register so you can join in!
Hi Lads

Am new to the the carp game although been fishing many years to be honest after reading this thread (twice) I'm of the opinion that using a bait straight off the shelf is going to hinder my start straight away, am I being negative? any comment would be grateful, and if I can be so bold can I get any of these specials to give me a kick start?
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   Old Thread  #216 10 Jan 2019 at 9.55am Login so you can post / reply  Register so you can join in!
In reply to Post #212
ďI would NEVER use any freezer bait ever, that did not sweat right up in a bag after a few days, a couple preferably.Ē

Hi Mark,
Iím a happy man then as two of my homemades got a white mould at the end of the second being closed in a can and kept in the boiler room.
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   Old Thread  #215 10 Jan 2019 at 9.54am Login so you can post / reply  Register so you can join in!
In reply to Post #214
All about the yeast, fructose (or glucose) and maybe a bit of dextrose.


Be lucky...and get on the SHB.


"In the land of the blind, the one eyed man is king"
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   Old Thread  #214 10 Jan 2019 at 9.41am Login so you can post / reply  Register so you can join in!
In reply to Post #213
I did not say you did not understand Mr Blonde. I just ran with what you said a bit, I was talking to everyone, not you after the first line.

Mother nature created the fish. And mother nature knows damn well how to attract them to. They have evolved, like everything else, around their environment. Their environment is different to ours, and we know so little, as others have so rightly said, about what goes on under water with fish and attraction.

Put something man made in when a blood worm bed is kicking off. You ain't getting a bite, mother nature wins. Not because they are scared of your bait, because the blood worm signals, are stronger, than your man made signals to a carp. Evolution beats your bait hands down. Why does a swan mussel bed do the same thing? Ever tasted one? Taste a little bit salty for a fresh water creature if you eat a clean one. Why do pike show a preference to sea dead baits, over coarse dead baits? Could it be the salty sea fish? Pike have no barbules, they seem to like naturally salty things though to.
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   Old Thread  #213 10 Jan 2019 at 0.49am Login so you can post / reply  Register so you can join in!
In reply to Post #211
And understanding why that is actually so Mr Blonde, is key to a lot of stuff written in this thread. The readymades never sweated, the readymades were crap. So were the pop ups.

I do understand Mark, that's why i pop'd it into the thread.
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   Old Thread  #212 9 Jan 2019 at 11.48pm Login so you can post / reply  Register so you can join in!
In reply to Post #211
Now think to yourself. Since the big advent in freezer bait, and the explosion of carp fishing. It costs a lot of money in expensive electricity to keep masses of bait in freezers for stock. Courier companies often have a habit of messing up to. So if your bait had say a bit of preserver in, but was still frozen when you got it. Solves a lot of problems doesn't it. Of course I'm not saying that this happens, but I've seen a lot of freezer bait over the past ten years being used by others, that will not go off, even when left in a sealed bag in the sun for a week midsummer.

I would NEVER use any freezer bait ever, that did not sweat right up in a bag after a few days, a couple preferably. If your freezer bait is not going off, how can anything in this thread even work if you tried it. Preservatives inhibit mould. Fermenting boilies like we are talking about is 'good' mould. It will not work if there are preservatives in there.

The best freezer baits in history, they all go off fairly quickly. If yours does not, I'm sure you can join up the dots.
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   Old Thread  #211 9 Jan 2019 at 11.30pm Login so you can post / reply  Register so you can join in!
In reply to Post #208
And understanding why that is actually so Mr Blonde, is key to a lot of stuff written in this thread. The readymades never sweated, the readymades were crap. So were the pop ups.

That is base mix. It's one small part of the equation, but if you can get your food kicking off mother nature signals. It's the best base for excellence. Carp bait attraction, is so multi faceted it is unreal. You need everything in a hook bait for example, working with each other, food, powders, liquids, spices, etc, etc, the lot. Not some hotch/potch chuck it all in scenario, with a load of glass balls made by chemicals companies or some bland pop up mix. It needs to be all working together, to really get the right exceptional end results. That's fact, not fiction.

I could train a five year old, to put a kilo of pop up base mix into a bowl, and add set amounts of some liquid and some egg like a book says. It does not make the five year old a bait expert. And the five year old is going to make the same shizzle, as what everyone else made, and millions before them to isn't he. Ouuu he mixed some flavours, made by some one else together did he. Wowzas. He knows his stuff. Why would I want to do something like that, when I want something a bit more than that. Going on some one else's advice or previous, you'll just get their results. Just second hand. Yes pop up mix pop ups 'work', they always have. But when some one comes a long with something 'proper', they are not working anymore for you like before. You'll see fairly rapidly that something else works far better, than what you have. You'll adapt, or you'll blank. Simples. Carp fishing is quite popular these days, lakes are very busy. If you want to do something different results wise, you can't use the same old stuff as 95% of the blokes on the lake around you, can you.

Carp fishing in a nutshell. Don't be a follower, be the one who tries new things. It's the only way you'll get 'different' results. Maybe you want the same results, which is fine, I don't.

Not everything in carp bait folk lore is the gospel. A lot of it is ********. So do your own thing.

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   Old Thread  #210 9 Jan 2019 at 9.08pm Login so you can post / reply  Register so you can join in!
In reply to Post #207
Yes Paulie mentioned turning granulated sugar into icing sugar, by grinding it down, he also mentioned I played around to create 'increased' attraction. I did put into the mix (sic😁 ) about how my dog likes eating brown sugar.
There is an add to that, which I sort of started going into, but paused as the subject developed. The types of sugar can create increased reaction.
You can put plain straight granulated sugar into your baits, but the reaction is minimal, it is not as soluble (I think) as other sugars. Icing sugar creates a better reaction, demerara sugar makes no or little difference, unless finely ground, but soft light brown and soft dark brown sugar do increase reactions, to boilies and particles.

Soft dark brown sugar is very rich, still containing molasses, and does make a very good bait additive.
Try as you pour boiling water over your particles to soak them, stirring in some dark brown sugar. Mix it into your boilie mix, or even, as you boil the baits, stir some brown sugar into your boiling water.
Then try putting them into liquid yeast after drying and drying again.
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   Old Thread  #209 9 Jan 2019 at 3.46pm Login so you can post / reply  Register so you can join in!
In reply to Post #208
Indeed or Strawberry Cream....brings back memories.
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   Old Thread  #208 9 Jan 2019 at 12.40pm Login so you can post / reply  Register so you can join in!
In reply to Post #207
You can't beat a bag of sticky Tutties that have sat in the sun for a few hours.
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   Old Thread  #207 9 Jan 2019 at 10.39am Login so you can post / reply  Register so you can join in!
In reply to Post #206
yeah , he said he was coating with Brococell and Paulie J tipped a wink to add Icing Sugar if i remember rightly?
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
#34 31 Dec 2018 at 10.42am

In reply to Post #29
Try chucking a little bit of icing sugar into your dustings as well Mereman, as well as what you already do. It will help 'things' along nicely.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Would be interesting if someone can put there preferred process' on here to aid all? Like Mike Bridges has done for Dynamite with his 'Profiling' bait preparation.......
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   Old Thread  #206 9 Jan 2019 at 8.56am Login so you can post / reply  Register so you can join in!
In reply to Post #205
I've enjoyed this post a lot, but have got lost a bit along the way a bit. Was there any conclusion to the original post about fermenting boilies ? Does anyone do it ? and if so what method do they use ? Noticed one guy sprinkled brocacel yeast over his frozen boilies but don't know what he did after that ?
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   Old Thread  #205 8 Jan 2019 at 8.02pm Login so you can post / reply  Register so you can join in!
In reply to Post #203
The cork balls can. I personally would not mount the crushed corks that way or the barrels or the balanced. It's far easier to just pierce them with a loop of floss and bait stop, and tie on to your ring I find. There is no solid ball of cork to screw into, and they are real food, not granite hard pop up mix. I don't use bait screws with them mate.

Save the S1 for warmer water. They have a sodium based hardened coating. It works best in warm water.
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   Old Thread  #204 8 Jan 2019 at 11.20am Login so you can post / reply  Register so you can join in!
Good thread, plenty of bits & pieces out there that flick the carps switches, these days I worry not about the science, why, if's etc, as long as the bites keep coming.
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   Old Thread  #203 7 Jan 2019 at 9.45pm Login so you can post / reply  Register so you can join in!
In reply to Post #202
Yea just wondered as the others are the natural colour thought there might be something behind it messed with all things bait for years love it. I used mainline for years on one rod and swapped and changed on others. always caught well on there baits. Out of those three the a8 look like the ones esp with added greenlip. Can your baits be mounted on a bait screw ?? I bought some s1 barrels and pops when you first started but believe it or not I never used them tested them in water and they leak of a loverpy spice trail smell spicey and carpy. Might be time to give them a whirl.
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   Old Thread  #202 7 Jan 2019 at 8.54pm Login so you can post / reply  Register so you can join in!
In reply to Post #194
Because that's a nice hook bait colour mate. Washed out pink is always a winner Jim. The Cell base mix is a neutral colour, so it takes a colour very nicely at low levels. The Active-8 and the Link, they are much, much darker base mix and liquids. They don't take colours so well, especially the Link. Those two are better left au natural. They are Cell, just coloured pink.

Pink is a popular hook bait colour. They could have just have easily been white, or natural Cell colour. People seem to like that colour though in a hook bait. Mainline Cell users all seem to love them anyway.



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   Old Thread  #201 7 Jan 2019 at 8.32pm Login so you can post / reply  Register so you can join in!
In reply to Post #200
They flog Secret Cell at De Bows and Lesmont. Itís like a horrible bright red colour.
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   Old Thread  #200 7 Jan 2019 at 8.07pm Login so you can post / reply  Register so you can join in!
In reply to Post #199
Sorry, couldnít be arsed with the link just assumed it was a video !
Donít believe everything you read 🙄
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   Old Thread  #199 7 Jan 2019 at 8.02pm Login so you can post / reply  Register so you can join in!
In reply to Post #198
What video
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   Old Thread  #198 7 Jan 2019 at 7.59pm Login so you can post / reply  Register so you can join in!
In reply to Post #197
Done believe everything thing you see on a video
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   Old Thread  #197 7 Jan 2019 at 7.44pm Login so you can post / reply  Register so you can join in!
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They did at Lesmontread here
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   Old Thread  #196 7 Jan 2019 at 7.39pm Login so you can post / reply  Register so you can join in!
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No they dont
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   Old Thread  #195 7 Jan 2019 at 6.32pm Login so you can post / reply  Register so you can join in!
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Pink Cell that's what they use at Bows Lakes.
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   Old Thread  #194 7 Jan 2019 at 6.08pm Login so you can post / reply  Register so you can join in!
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Why have you done the cells In pink ??
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   Old Thread  #193 6 Jan 2019 at 1.26pm Login so you can post / reply  Register so you can join in!
In reply to Post #192
No the best option, would be the Mainline Cell, that we make and sell mate. No pun intended.

The S1 are very good abroad, I'm told Poisson Chat hate the S1 coating. Most of the S1 we sell, are to go abroad with, they seem to work so well in France for some reason. If there are Chat about, mesh the coating so it stays on for days. Some double mesh it. I'm told it works.

But if they love Mainline Cell, get some Mainline Cell crushed cork from us and take Mainline freezers. They work, the bloke who was holding the 50lb+ UK common earlier in this thread, that's Charlie's Mate from Frimley. He caught that on a 13mm pink coloured Cell CC. He only ordered them on December 12th. He caught that fish at Christmas. The bloke holding the 54lb UK mirror, that was caught on a Link one from a 400 acre venue, within a week of him having them and broke his PB by nearly 20lb. I made a few prototype tubs in Link in our cured/CC format. A tub was given to an angler, not by me. That angler, was the top rod on a very busy venue (probably the most popular day ticket now) with those sample hook baits, and their new Link freezer bait, he absolutely ripped it. I caught more good fish from the river Thames in 2017, in a very short period, than anyone probably ever has before. A lot of them were on those exact same Link crushed cork, as he had and that same bait. There was only a few tubs made initially. Those few tubs, caught a lot of carp. I'm told the Active-8 ones, are crazy good to, they have a touch of GLM added, in both liquids and powders.

We are lucky, I'm good friends with the people who own Mainline now. I make hook baits for some of their anglers, anything they want. I use their bait, through choice. I get some special stuff to play with to. The Mainline hook baits we sell, are Mainline ingredients straight from the bosses themselves. Base mix and Activators. We've just added a touch of our hook bait bits and bobs to them, and put them through our curing process. They have the boom ting base mixes and liquids. And we can do great things with a hook bait. Winner winner, steak for dinner... After you caught some big carp.

If these could be made on an industrial scale right now, they would probably already be in every tackle shop, in Europe with a Mainline Baits label on (it's their bait). Not me selling them on a much smaller scale, to in the main secret squirrels, who do not want to show their photos.

Who knows, maybe one day they will be made on an industrial scale. I don't want to be making 'special' hook baits forever and ever, that's for sure. It's all to stressful when you are a smaller company and deal direct with the public.

These have to be special ordered at the moment, I'll tell you how via PM. But we have plenty in stock. They will be on the website soon. We are so busy now it is unreal. There will be a week or mores wait for anyone ordering off here yesterday, or today because I've opened my mouth on other social media to. I have to many PM's to even reply today on here I'm sorry. When I'm back at work tomorrow, I will look at them all before any deliveries go out don't worry and stick you all something extra in. We really should get back to just talking about bait making (not mine) again now though.

One thing that does keep popping up in PM's. You do not need to freeze them, you do not need to put them in the fridge. They will keep forever. They actually all improve with age. Just keep the lid screwed up tight, they will attract moisture otherwise.

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   Old Thread  #192 6 Jan 2019 at 12.41pm Login so you can post / reply  Register so you can join in!
In reply to Post #191
Very helpful, thanks. I was thinking of buying the 17mm and cutting them down but will get some 13mm too as a snowman topper. Going to France in June and have been told that Cell works well on the lake. Would the S1 be the best option in this case? Iv'e used corkball baits a lot in the past but really prefer the versatility of a cork chunk bait as the can be pierced easier. I use bait screws pretty much exclusively on all my pop up rigs but pierce the baits for a snowman which you can't do with a corkball.
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   Old Thread  #191 6 Jan 2019 at 11.09am Login so you can post / reply  Register so you can join in!
In reply to Post #177
Hi mate, no the 13mm are pop ups to mate. They will hold up a size 7, or maybe a 6, with a size 12 ring swivel if using a chod or SHR. Remember, the pop up needs to hold up the barrel of the swivel straight as well. A size 8 ring swivel barrel, has a lot of weight to it, more than the hook itself. If using on a standard pop up rig, ie multi rig, they will hold up a 5 or a 6. I tend to use the 13mm as snowman toppers myself with an 18mm bait. But everyone else uses them as pop ups. Funnily enough, I just posted a photo on faceache of a man, who caught a 70+ from Mar Peche on Boxing day, on a 13mm S2 CC. He was using them as pop ups mate.

A great tip which I give our customers is this. If you look at the two photos' below, one SHR with a 17mm CC, chucked in the edge, has a fully sodden peanut on top. That is holding up a size 4 hook, a size 8 ring swivel barrel, and a peanut that had been in the lake for thirty six hours. The other in the mouth of a 40, has a tiger nut on top of the pop up, which weighs even more. As you can see, I like to change shapes. I'd get 17mm, and trim them down if you want a smaller bait. All carp ever see on pop up rigs is little round balls. These are very easy to eject for them, as they 'fly straight', and straight out of the mouth when they blow them. It's simple physics. You can see that I have added weight to those pop ups, so instead, take a 17mm CC and cut the top quarter off with a serrated sharp knife. Mount this on your chod/SHR, flat side up. This will still hold up your rig fine. Now you have something which no one fishes on a pop up rig. The rig will work much better as it will no longer 'fly straight' when they try to blow it out of their mouth.

Fish it over a few small spombs of halved freezer baits. Deadly Douglas.

When you see the crushed cork for the first time, you can see cork all over the outside of the bait. But as all of our customers who love them so much know, as in those two photographs... Once they have been in the water for a small period, you will not see any cork anymore. They feel all lumpy to a carp, and feel nothing like the nice smooth pop up, that every other sod has been casting out forever. One with a flat side, even more so. Carp 'feel' things, it's one of their biggest senses.

Someone else asked about cork dust. Cork dust is crap mate, and can be rolled on a table. It sinks after a few hours, and the dust contains glue from cheap crap cork. Ours are called crushed corks, as they have 5mm pieces of the finest cork inside. I had to import a load of it from Portugal myself, as the right stuff was not available in the UK. They are harder to roll than a cork ball. Imagine a lumpy mix, which is more than 50% made up of 5mm hard odd shaped lumps. They are a nightmare to roll. The lumps are worked into the middle of the bait by hand. When piercing them, do it carefully and put a hard surface behind the bait (I use my thumb), this will stop you pushing a lump of cork out the back of the bait. NO ONE ELSE makes these crushed cork hook baits, like a lot of other stuff... We came up with it, it makes a super cork ball pretty much. If you ever see any other sod trying to sell them in the future, well you just know don't you. Unlike a cork ball, which they will perform the same as in terms of buoyancy over a period of time, you can pierce them, trim them, and birds can pick them up over and over again. They also take on more cure, than the cork ball versions of the same bait every time they are 'done'. Because there is no solid ball inside. They are a little bit 'pokier' to, for that reason.


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   Old Thread  #190 6 Jan 2019 at 10.49am Login so you can post / reply  Register so you can join in!
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Placed an order and sent PM
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   Old Thread  #189 6 Jan 2019 at 10.15am Login so you can post / reply  Register so you can join in!
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Itís hydrolisates work I guess. Local musk-rats go crazy about my winter baits containing them at least.

Mark, I sent you a PM mate.
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   Old Thread  #188 6 Jan 2019 at 8.57am Login so you can post / reply  Register so you can join in!
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Mark, sent You a PM mate.
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   Old Thread  #187 6 Jan 2019 at 8.45am Login so you can post / reply  Register so you can join in!
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Interesting stuff Mark. Kinda tempted to try your supercharged hookbaits over my Enzyme Baits to go for a 'best of both worlds' scenario. I'm guessing the crushed Cork S2 would be a better option for pits with cray/psycho tufty issues? I'm not keen on meshing or flossing and would much rather pierce the baits. The S2 is the 'caramel' type one?
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   Old Thread  #186 5 Jan 2019 at 11.40pm Login so you can post / reply  Register so you can join in!
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   Old Thread  #185 5 Jan 2019 at 11.37pm Login so you can post / reply  Register so you can join in!
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Yes that is a common theme I've heard loads mate. Vermin will leave every single other thing in a garage or shed, including open base mix powders... If there is a tub of S2's in there anywhere... They will only go for one thing, even if it is in the most inaccessible place. We can't store them outside at all for that reason.

I got some animal feed bins for my garden, with a locking lid. I keep loads of particles in them. They have never been touched. I came back from fishing, and put a bag with some bits in, into one of the storage bins, forgetting there was a tub of S2 in the bag.

The next day, it was clear a whole army of mice had tried their very best to get into that storage bin! All the way around the bottom were little chew spots. They did not get in, but i took the bag in doors anyway. They would have eventually. It's crack cocaine to them.
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   Old Thread  #184 5 Jan 2019 at 11.30pm Login so you can post / reply  Register so you can join in!
In reply to Post #178
Bloody hell Jamie, well done, that's some damn good fishing mate. Make sure you PM me your full name on here when you do. And you to Mart.

We have been pretty much up to date recently, we cleared all of our orders before Xmas. But we have been incredibly busy in the last week. It's going to be a week or so's wait for some I'd say now.

The F1's and the S2 coated, are the best hook baits we do for single hook bait fishing Jamie. They have a bit more bang for the buck. I'll chuck you in some S2 C next time to try. They are very good to mate. They have a hardened coating like the F1, but it is betaine & chocolate powders, with a couple of other little bits and bobs. In cold water the betaine powder gets a kick off going straight away.

Thank you for the kind words Jamie, and don't forget to PM me your second name.
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   Old Thread  #183 5 Jan 2019 at 9.57pm Login so you can post / reply  Register so you can join in!
I think this is the first bait thread I've really taken interest in. Well done chaps, keep up the good info.

I'm looking forward to trying my new crushed cork baits too
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   Old Thread  #182 5 Jan 2019 at 9.26pm Login so you can post / reply  Register so you can join in!
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PMSL 😂
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   Old Thread  #181 5 Jan 2019 at 9.20pm Login so you can post / reply  Register so you can join in!
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   Old Thread  #180 5 Jan 2019 at 8.08pm Login so you can post / reply  Register so you can join in!
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I had exactly the same thing, out of dozens of tubs of pop ups a mouse almost gnawed through the lid and side of the pot of S2 never had that before.
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   Old Thread  #179 5 Jan 2019 at 6.51pm Login so you can post / reply  Register so you can join in!
s2's aren't just super attractive to fish either.

I left my shed door open a couple of summers back and a racoon got in (you think mice are bad - ). anyway - the food it went straight for - the tub of s2's sitting on the top shelf by themselves despite other grub available lower down. LOL
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   Old Thread  #178 5 Jan 2019 at 4.33pm Login so you can post / reply  Register so you can join in!
I was going to post this before now, but due to PJ requesting that we less mention Specialized Hook Baits and get back on topic of fermentation of boilies, I chose not to.

I first started using SHB over five years ago now.
I first ordered a batch of S2ís to try out and I caught from the off. In fact, the very first time I used them, I had four takes, landing two. Both the fish caught were rare visitors to the bank, one being a low 30lb mirror and the other being a common at just under 40lb.
I went on to use the S2ís exclusively for the remainder of the season as I was mainly using one type of rig due to the bottom of the lake that I was targeting and these hook baits complemented it perfectly. I ended up catching three different 40lb carp the first season using the S2ís.

I also had a flit with the F1ís, which I liked - a lot! They were a little different than anything else I had ever tried before and they just screamed out attraction... you will know what I mean if you have ever had a play with them.
On the F1ís, I ended up catching another rare visitor to the bank that had been speculated to be dead as it hadnít been out for some time. The actual bait I had it on had been out for over twenty hours in the pond holding up a size 5 hook.

Trust me, whatever it is that Mark does to his baits - clearly works!
I shall be putting in a sizeable order again very soon!
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   Old Thread  #177 5 Jan 2019 at 3.55pm Login so you can post / reply  Register so you can join in!
Mark, am I right in thinking that the 17mm are designed as pop ups and the 13mm as snowman toppers? Talking about the Cork dust ones. I prefer a smaller bait mostly and was wondering if a 13mm would hold up a size 4 for instance?
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   Old Thread  #176 5 Jan 2019 at 11.25am Login so you can post / reply  Register so you can join in!
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We will be doing Insta don't worry Ben from now on. It's just another thing for me to do. We put a video on there at Xmas that got more views on there, than it did on Faceache. Photo's are now getting more likes on there to. We only have just over 1k followers on there I think to, because never really tried with it yet. We have just under 15k on faceache. yet Insta is out performing it with the same stuff, at the same time. That adds up to what you are saying as well mate.

Thank you for the kind words, PM me your second name Ben.
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   Old Thread  #175 5 Jan 2019 at 10.58am Login so you can post / reply  Register so you can join in!
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Oh it so does mate, like so badly it's unreal. There's anglers on there, who are attached with other bait firms now LOL. We don't do deals for them mate. Don't need to, anglers use our stuff, because they want to, not because they are paid in some way. I never actually look at the website. I paid a lot of money for that. And then had to pay a lot of money a couple of years later, to make it easier to add new pages. I'm clueless about anything like that at all. I have to pay some one else to do it

To me it's just a vehicle to sell our products. I forget that people go on there to look at stuff if I'm honest with you.

It's about to get a big update soon. There needs to be a Mainline hook bait page on there. At the moment, people are still ordering them via text messages first, and then via the site. When that gets sorted, it will get a big over all update.

We have some new stuff as well of our own. We've had new stuff for quite a while, but when you can't keep up with what you already do, new stuff is just even more hard work. Last time we put new stuff on there, I had to have the website taken down for a period of days after to many orders. Just to calm things down as we were out of stock, and we would not have been able to even make what was being ordered in weeks, literally. I fear what will happen when the Mainline page goes on there. First time we put them up for sale before Xmas, we sold everything we had in a few hours. And we had a lot. I just want to go fishing most of the time and that all badly interferes with it.
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   Old Thread  #174 5 Jan 2019 at 9.12am Login so you can post / reply  Register so you can join in!
In reply to Post #172
I ordered some S2s and S3s the other day canít wait to get to use them. You say you donít really do Instagram but I find people that donít do faceache, like me, do Instagram instea. Just started following you on that to keep upto date. Good luck Mark but by sounds of it you donít need it

Ben
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   Old Thread  #173 5 Jan 2019 at 0.35am Login so you can post / reply  Register so you can join in!
Interesting thread, and when all is said and done, it has kept reasonably civil which has allowed it to continue, nice one lads!
Mark, your hookbaits have definitely sparked my interest, and I may have to try some.
Yes, your homepage needs updating
Happy new year fellas
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   Old Thread  #172 4 Jan 2019 at 9.09pm Login so you can post / reply  Register so you can join in!
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Thank you mate. We put things on faceache that get over 2k likes (reach of 120k), and videos that get over 100k views. (I think 106k is our record). We put a video up over Xmas that got 20k views in two days. And a photo on instagram that generated over 3k likes. Another over 2k likes. We don't really do Instagram either. In todays market, that means... Ker-ching. Just cannot do it to much, or it gets to busy. Bit like it is right now
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   Old Thread  #171 4 Jan 2019 at 8.52pm Login so you can post / reply  Register so you can join in!
In reply to Post #166
This thread has had over 6000 views in less than a month and I'm sure will get lots more too, if you've been on FB too this month, best get stocked up for some orders.

It's just reminded me of how greatyour baits are. I have not used them , a friend has and I loved the whole concept and finished bait. Will deffo be ordering some for my next trip to France
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   Old Thread  #170 4 Jan 2019 at 8.03pm Login so you can post / reply  Register so you can join in!
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Nice one Mark
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   Old Thread  #169 4 Jan 2019 at 7.58pm Login so you can post / reply  Register so you can join in!
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   Old Thread  #168 4 Jan 2019 at 7.57pm Login so you can post / reply  Register so you can join in!
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It's not been updated since we started mate photos wise. Just extra pages added. It needs an update now after six or seven years though.

PM me the name, I will sort you out mate.
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   Old Thread  #167 4 Jan 2019 at 7.46pm Login so you can post / reply  Register so you can join in!
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Interesting site mark, just ordered myself a few pots..
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   Old Thread  #166 4 Jan 2019 at 7.31pm Login so you can post / reply  Register so you can join in!
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That is more because they take ages to make mate. When we get a rush on one product and go out of stock... We can't just magic some more out of thin air for the next day. They take two-three weeks to make. That leads to big problems in the Summer. They used to take longer, but I have refined things over the years and managed to speed it up.

But we are always busy. And they are individually palm rolled before all that to. It's painstaking. So if we go out of stock, it's a mare. What happens is this, some one, some where, will absolutely clump somewhere, with say 3's. I will not know about it, until every single sod in that general area in the country orders 3's, en masse, at the same time. We could go from selling one amount over a month period, and that amount can times by twenty in a day under those circumstances. I'll later find out why.

I'm only here because I'm not fishing this week, and it makes no difference to what gets rolled anyway. .

I need to shut up soon though, I've opened my gob over Xmas on here, and posted a few pics on social media that have been seen by many thousands of anglers. This leads to to many orders, literally. It's in a good place nowadays, where I don't actually need to put anything up anymore. Just every now and then, just to remind new customers we have not gone out of business. But it creates to much business when I do.

It's great, and I love it all, but hand rolled hook baits that take three weeks to make are a massive pain in the arse.
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   Old Thread  #165 4 Jan 2019 at 5.30pm Login so you can post / reply  Register so you can join in!
Some interesting points coming up amoungst the jeeps!

How about sweet or salt curing a fermented bait? i.e to stabilise the bait (for practicality) by stopping further fermentation, yet ensnare the attraction of the original reactions..
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   Old Thread  #164 4 Jan 2019 at 5.02pm Login so you can post / reply  Register so you can join in!
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Best post of the thread

Stay off carpforum and quadruple production

You mad ****
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   Old Thread  #163 4 Jan 2019 at 4.55pm Login so you can post / reply  Register so you can join in!
In reply to Post #157
Hi Mark,
Glad to see the dust is now settling and we can look forward to some more interesting posts on this thread.
The results of heating oils and the mix and concentration of aminos are interesting subjects for discussion.
Ian.
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   Old Thread  #162 4 Jan 2019 at 4.02pm Login so you can post / reply  Register so you can join in!
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   Old Thread  #161 4 Jan 2019 at 4.00pm Login so you can post / reply  Register so you can join in!
In reply to Post #159
No wonder thereís a two week waiting list for your ****ing baits... can you get off here and start heating some oils and get making some.
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   Old Thread  #160 4 Jan 2019 at 3.55pm Login so you can post / reply  Register so you can join in!
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Hi MM,
Indeed we have had this discussion before. And I have read about it since then. I do have my doubts on how achievable this is in a real baiting situation with the relative narrow window of concentration.
I am sure this thread will calm down. Mark/Paulie does not know his chemistry, which he happily admit, and you have a focus on attractants that perhaps might benefit from broadening.
In my limited understanding the heating of oil cause a raise in polar substances within the groups carp can detect.
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   Old Thread  #159 4 Jan 2019 at 3.42pm Login so you can post / reply  Register so you can join in!
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And that's what i said earlier Jim, but I was told I was wrong. I don't know the exact answer... I'm just the one doing it though and it works LOL.
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   Old Thread  #158 4 Jan 2019 at 3.39pm Login so you can post / reply  Register so you can join in!
In reply to Post #157
At a guess heating up a oil will change it's structure/ makeup probably changing the way it behaves in water. I'd imagine it would make it thinner there fore make it less dense enabling it to flow into the water column more easily. Like alcohol lighter than water hence ea flavours in thicker cold water
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   Old Thread  #157 4 Jan 2019 at 3.28pm Login so you can post / reply  Register so you can join in!
In reply to Post #154
Thank you MystyM, they are nice photographs yes. Pictures hang on a wall mate. All of those blokes, to a man MM, will tell you exactly the same thing. They will shout it to you, they will not listen to anything else. I will bet you. That's called, evidence to me.

You're asking me some questions, which I am not prepared to answer MM, that's all. Donkeys years ago I wrote about 'rotting' particles on the internet. This was before my business started. It was very primitive stuff. Everyone probably read it who's a bit older. It involved hemp and garlic. Carpworld articles were written about exactly the same thing some time later (years). And about the salt cured thread that I wrote on that forum to. The same bloke was connected to a bait firm which had just started, which brought out cured hook baits a year after we started up and launched ours. Luckily for me, the stuff I had spoken about on the internet, was not the real good un, I just did not know entirely at that time. Lucky I never wrote about 'sugars' back then for me, eh. Someone went down the wrong road because of that, and I'm so glad, copying at all points with their kit form coated hook baits to match. How did that all work out? Yeah, thought so, all just fell off in the water in 30 seconds did it? LOL. The actual boss, not that bloke, used to PM me on Cemtex, I did not even know he was the owner of that firm at the time this fella. They even pm'd me after two years of no contact, saying they were bringing out 'cured' hook baits to, and could I please help quash any copy talk, as great minds think alike and all that. I thought you cheeky sod! You used to PM me asking me questions about those threads! And you're actually best mates with 'him'! WTF. That's when I found out he actually owned that company. I did not reply. I was banned from the now dead forum soon after. The new owner of the forum Cemtex sold, was one of their pals I was later told. That's why TCarper died I'd guess LOL. TCarper just went and showed it all to 100k anglers on faceache... Bothered. Anyway, that's also why I cannot talk about everything so freely MM. I have before, and it has cost me. It does not mean I can't explain myself, it means I will not.

You are undoubtably, a far more educated man than me MM. But around a carp, nah sorry. I can admit my failings, I don't know everything in any way shape or form. But I know a bit, and what I know, well it just works, and works exceptionally well. Like yourself, carp and my business in fishing, are not the be all and end all. I have other things that help define me. I have never worked for anyone, ever, only myself. The one exception, is when I was a grade1 croupier in Mayfair during my youth. I was taught to cheat MM, to spot cheats. I can 'count' through eight decks of cards at black jack with ease. I can sit down with any man at poker and compete. Because I have an inherent understanding of odds. Multi billionaire bookmakers, all have a black book MM. They share this BB information with each other. Now the boss of one of them, paid themselves £580 million last year, wages. In their black books MM, there are names. My name (real name) is in them all MM. The reason those names are in those books, is because it's their golden number one rule... Don't 'play' with any of these people listed in the black book, or they will **** you up at your own game. Now you imagine, you're a clever man MM... The fun and games I have to play in that scenario to place a bet on anything in advance of the event. Do you think an internet argument on a forum really means the world to me? It does not. Or carp fishing politics? Nah. I just love fishing. All that has nothing to do with carp bait or fishing, but one thing I am not, is thick. I bet it does not matter to you either MM. So let it go. I'll say it again, can we just draw a line under this now. Internet friends MM, I am extending my internet hand, as men do in real life all of the time.

I'm glad you changed your mind now about oils MM. I'm very happy if you can tell me, why me heating oils makes them better, I would love that. But there's stuff I cannot tell you, for reasons partly explained above. So if you want to tell me do, but that's up to you MM.

I have a mate, who's friends influence the global food trade MM. I'm sure you know what that means. My mate has never asked me what I'm up to, and I've never asked him what he is up to. No need on either side. But gosh, does he know his onions about all things food. That would be the man who came up with three of the best freezer baits ever, bar none.

If I was ever going to trust anyone to put my 'baby' into a freezer bait, it would be him. Because he damn well knows his stuff is why.
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   Old Thread  #156 4 Jan 2019 at 2.27pm Login so you can post / reply  Register so you can join in!
In reply to Post #151
We have had this discussion on amino acids before, if you recall caviats were put in place regarding the amino mix and concentration, this is critical in obtaining the max stimulation.
A discussion for another time perhaps when all the drama has gone out of this thread.
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   Old Thread  #155 4 Jan 2019 at 2.23pm Login so you can post / reply  Register so you can join in!
In reply to Post #139
I am amazed did BB say that you had a PhD in Biology. Ask any Bio Chemist or Biologist to explain to you how the reflex ( involuntary) systems in teleost fish operate, the fish could not survive without these systems. Read the books of Caprio, Hara etc etc

If I recall on the black forum you spent a lot of time developing your own basic enzyme bait. You were so pleased with how the resultant bait worked that you thanked Pete B and myself, on the open forum, for all the help we had given you.
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   Old Thread  #154 4 Jan 2019 at 2.15pm Login so you can post / reply  Register so you can join in!
In reply to Post #138
Thank you for all those nice pictures ; but you haven't answered my polite question regarding the attractiveness of tigers and hemp compared to enzyme baits.

I have the facilities and expertise to analyse, flavours, baits, glugs etc.there is a commercial sensitivity here so that's as far as I can go.
I have not in any way attempted to obtain the formulation of any bait, including yours, via a forum etc. I have no need to.

I can assure you there are no "wonder"ingredients " in any of the commercial boilie mixes; but yes there are different ways of putting the bait together to achieve the required flux rates of chemicals necessary to stimulate the chemoreceptors/detection apparatus

In terms of my financial status, business contacts, etc in the worldwide bait industry I have no intention of discussing that on a forum. I can tell you though that I have over 30 years experience .

Why do I post on some forums ? I have been asked that question many times.Firstly it's because I am a passionate carp angler, secondly because I am in a fortunate position to have access to unique facilities, formulations and knowledge acquired over more than 30 years which, where I am able to pass it on, may be of interest to other like minded anglers.
I accept that some anglers couldn't " care a toss" or even believe the science behind the bait; but some obviously do. I had many, many PM's of thanks for my help and requests for further information on the black and other forums.
My apologies to those who have sent me PM's on this forum which I haven't yet answered, I am used to E mail notification. I will reply.
Finally when things have calmed down a bit, I have changed my mind on oils, I will come back and explain how oils "work" and exactly what happens when they are heated.

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   Old Thread  #153 4 Jan 2019 at 10.59am Login so you can post / reply  Register so you can join in!
In reply to Post #151
Resetting rigs with pop ups and the D, were virtually as revolutionary in carp fishing as the hair rig in my opinion. Everyone has Frank Warwick, and Terry Hearn and people like them to thank for things like that. The resetting rig, changed everything. Carp get away with it all of the time. A bottom bait rig that is ejected, is in a pile on the bottom. The hook link is now all sticking up in the air, and you ain't getting a bite. A resetting rig, they can eject it as many times as they want. It's still presented perfectly, and never tied up in a little heap after ejection. If you know how many times they 'get away' with it, you know how important that little fact is. It's massively important.

So put something, on a resetting rig, that they find attractive on another level.

You cannot fail.

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   Old Thread  #152 4 Jan 2019 at 10.42am Login so you can post / reply  Register so you can join in!
In reply to Post #151
Oh I know all about that side of it to mate. Funny isn't it the bait industry games.

Nothing, that is a man made replica of anything natural (sugars or oils), are as good IMO Sturla. They are better at some things in a bait, and do have their uses though. But attraction, old mother nature is king of that castle.

I am actually quite overwhelmed how many PM's I've had mate since I was here yesterday. Some very kind ones indeed to. I'm very shocked at the amount of you Euro lads on this forum as well.

Here is one for you, and them Sturla. It's from a blokes, first ever trip to the Albert canal. It's 20kg+. I've heard the Albert, is not easy.


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   Old Thread  #151 3 Jan 2019 at 9.00pm Login so you can post / reply  Register so you can join in!
In reply to Post #150
Hi Mark,
Others in the company wanted to walk different ways than me, thats when I left, simple as that. Me and my co-funders are still good friends, the new owners will not talk to me
Amino acids play an important role, but they are not all. Scientists have made replicas of natural foods replicating just the excact AA content of the food, and these usually are less effective than the full food extract. Also as you say, the effiency of nuts and other baits strongly indicate other substances are important.
My baits are based on hundreds of hours of scientific tank testing over many years and lots of these show very well that a lot of different substances other than amino acids have an effect. After seing and doing these tests I would not dismiss oils. This is tests performed by well known scientists, and these scientists say there is still a lot to discover in attraction.
You can say what you want about tank testing but if one should test this number of substances in real lakes it would take hundreds of years. You can't make the perfect bait in a tank, but you will get strong indications on what work and what don't. Then this can be tested in the real world.
Have a good night
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   Old Thread  #150 3 Jan 2019 at 8.00pm Login so you can post / reply  Register so you can join in!
In reply to Post #147
And I've never denied that Viking. I am no scientist. I am no literary genius. But I do have some skills Viking. My skills involve carp bait, and attraction. So that means I will not have some one telling me, that nothing I say has any reality in the real world. I'll just keep showing him 'real world' until he gets it, or I get bored. I'll get bored is my guess.

Viking, you have heard of Sticky Baits. You have heard of Manila. Well I was meant to go formulate that for them, if they had got their way. That's what I was told by their top boys at the time. As a consequence of having a big fat dose of their wonder baits not working, and their top anglers, needing to ask to use my stuff to catch any fish. It's all there on faceache, they posted the fish their consultants had caught on my hook baits, on their page, and said so to. That was the deal. When I would not go meet the boss, that all stopped, instantly. Their 'organiser' of anglers at the time, who now runs his own bait firm. He was the last in a long line to ask for permission from them, to use them. And the catalyst for me going to meet the boss talk I'd say. I was told by my friend, who was good pals with the boss, that it was to formulate a new nut bait for them. If it had not been for certain people, I probably might have done something with them, and met him. The two reasons that would never happen at the time, left their company or was pushed within a year. If i'd have anything to do with it, it would have been quite a bit better than it actually is, trust me. They know that to I'll bet. But they used the fish caught on my hook baits, in some major advertising, for the Krill after this. That organiser, had also turned up during a photo session of a fish caught on my hook baits from a secret pit, and gave the lad who had been clumping them a deal there and then. The lad was given a hoodie and bait, and the special carp in the sack, was photo'd by them, as caught on their bait. Leaves a sour taste that sort of thing does.

I could not do it Viking, like you, a small business was taking off a bit. I had no time to go formulate baits for some one else in mid 2013, when the business had started Dec 2012. It would basically be saying goodbye to all that.

It ain't for no reason Viking, trust me. The S2 is a nut bait. it works on natural sugars. I'm sure you can join the dots up yourself.

I hope you tell the truth you scoundrel I'm off out now. Have a great night mate.
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   Old Thread  #149 3 Jan 2019 at 7.48pm Login so you can post / reply  Register so you can join in!
In reply to Post #146
Hi Razorback,
Thanks for that, and the thought had occurred to me too.
I won't be going again until late spring when the weather warms up, so no rush. I'm not bothered about the cost of a couple of pots. I use expensive additives in my paste mixes, and I don't use much feed on short sessions. Viking is a friend and will keep me posted with his results.
Also, I'm working on an enzyme bait at the moment after spending a lot of time and effort on research and am hoping for good things.
BB.
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   Old Thread  #148 3 Jan 2019 at 7.24pm Login so you can post / reply  Register so you can join in!
In reply to Post #145
My name is Mark mate. It's okay BB, I understand you cannot answer anything for some one else. I wrongly presumed you must be closer than you are. I'll be honest BB, I only keep posting the photographs for him mate. He would like me to stop I'd say. He controls that though really. Mad eh. I bet he is super clued up BB, about many things. But he's not as clued up as he thinks is he is, not when it comes to certain things. I'm not silly mate, I totally get it that I have had a few digs previous about his oil not working theories, and that is what it's really all about. I mean to me this is just crazy that oil does not attract carp. What do you put out and it slicks up big style? Pellets and hemp. Are pellets and hemp super attractive to carp? Last time I checked they were, two of the best. But oil does not attract carp, that's just a coincidence you see. It's for another reason. Nuts and seeds contain oils and very natural sugars. Both super attractive to carp, the very best kind. Coincidence of course, it's for another reason.... And the reason is... Yes, some man in Japan said so, because they are not filled up with amino acids I guess, and that's what he's 'flogging' to death on internet forums as the holy grail. Hold tight while I laugh one more time about the oil and sugars not attracting carp. That is why he don't like me BB, simples. I can live with that. He seems a bit one dimensional to me BB, and he really does think he knows far more than he actually does. Carp are not the be all and end all. They are for some. I'm off big roach hunting next week, pike and barbel fishing to for monsters. Understanding about attracting many different fish, will teach MM far more than the papers he idolises.

I mean, really though? How can a carp angler even say this stuff. Science is talking absolute ******** in this case. I'll say it again, where are the scientists taking over the multi million pound UK bait industry? Have you ever seen one? Nah me neither. Funny that. He can run me down and be condescending as much as he wants. He can analyse mine, my contacts, and all the other top baits as he puts it, as much as he wants. He still can't come up with this.

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That's the Wood common from Spitfire pool this time MystyM.

Have a great evening all. What's your first name BB?
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   Old Thread  #147 3 Jan 2019 at 7.01pm Login so you can post / reply  Register so you can join in!
In reply to Post #136
Hi Paulie,
I didn't work really work FOR a big firm, it's more like I was part owner of a medium firm. They grew after I sold out and they moved to Denmark. When we started nobody really believed we could make it as a boilie company in a country with hardly any carp anglers. But we did, and as you say due to catches. One of our baits outfished a very well known brand something like 7-2 in a pretty hard, French water and the word got out.
This might come out rude, but like MM and BB say, you get a lot of the chemistry wrong, claiming stuff that is physically impossible. Also, your statement about hemp and tyigers versus enzyme baits made me smile. I believe Rod H. didn't rate tigers at all, at least not in 88?
But, like said earlier, despite that you obviously do something right and I think I have some clues about what it is. The reason I ordered bait from you in the first place was that one person which I tend to listen to seemed to rate them. That was why I bought my first pot of hookbaits in many years. It would also be pretty dumb to have an opinion on your bait without having tried them myself. As said, I will give them a fair try and if they outfish my homemades I will write a post on here. I will not like it one bit, but said is said
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   Old Thread  #146 3 Jan 2019 at 6.54pm Login so you can post / reply  Register so you can join in!
In reply to Post #145
Bb - forgive me but given your short sessions and wanting "maximum attraction" for "maximise your short term chances" then may I suggest a lovely pot of "ripe S2's, S1's" might save a lot of time / effort.

Think of it as another valuable string to your bow which I thought might resonate.
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   Old Thread  #145 3 Jan 2019 at 5.43pm Login so you can post / reply  Register so you can join in!
In reply to Post #144
Hi PJ,
No need to apologise, I would like to think MM and I are forum acquaintances. He has given me lots of tech help in the past and I'm grateful for that.
You are asking me questions that I can't answer. All that I have gathered from the B/F is that MM is a highly qualified scientist and a lifelong carp angler who, over many years, has used his knowledge to study bait science and carp physiology. I can only assume that he is content in his profession and not interested in
Joining the bait industry. Pete B is the same and has no commercial connections.
One thing to remember is that when MM and Pete quote science, they are not giving their own opinion, they are quoting proven science from the last 50 years of research.
I see no internet battle here, just a case of misunderstandings and the jumping to wrong conclusions.
Nobody needs to get their hackles up. We are all on the same basic quest, pursuing our passion for carp fishing.
BB.
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   Old Thread  #144 3 Jan 2019 at 3.58pm Login so you can post / reply  Register so you can join in!
In reply to Post #141
Then sorry BB, I will stop calling him your mate, apologies. He has been rude to me mate, I've been rude to him to. He does not want to stop, because he thinks that he going to win some internet battle with me. When I joined this forum, the only time you and MM pop up, is together I'd thought. So I presumed that you were good friends. I have no clue who you all are. BB, please tell me why, if MM is such an expert, that he is not raking in a good living from carp bait? Please tell me mate why he can't pull the photo's out like I have? I don't understand it myself, he tells me amino acids are the pinnacle of attraction for carp... Yet he can't show me any evidence of his theories in practice. Just papers, and your loyalty with him. All I want to know is why he cannot pull out a few photographs? He must have them, rakes of them, he knows what the holy grail of attraction for carp is, doesn't he? That's big money these days if he can do that in a freezer bait. Why is he not?

I don't care if he analyses my hook baits BB, not one jot. He'll find there's not one amino acid in there at a guesstimate... Go figure. And NOT one bit of it will help him in his boilie production anyway. He seems to forget, I deal in things that do not get ingested. I don't think he's as clued up as you think he is myself. My sole goal, is not to get a carp to consume a bait, but to get it on the bank through attraction. It's a different thing entirely. He needs to be careful saying in public, that he is analysing others bait I'd say. You see I'm a very nice guy BB and don't care so much. I just laugh at him. But others, maybe will care more than me BB. Some people will probably take great offence, if they see MM saying stuff like that, about their commercial interests is my best guess. Good luck to him I say, if that's his caper. He'll need it in my opinion. He should not shout about it in public though like that. I would not. You're basically admitting, that you're into ripping somebody off anyway

Because he wants to win some internet battle about whatever, he says random stuff like that, like I'm supposed to be A) Impressed, or B) Scared in some way.

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   Old Thread  #143 3 Jan 2019 at 3.31pm Login so you can post / reply  Register so you can join in!
In reply to Post #139
"That CV fish is a nice old one... Came out recently on casters to a friend of yours Mark... I'm sure you know that though."

Yes mate I knew. I was very surprised myself, that he gave that little secret away at the carp show. He has caught a lot of lovely fish on casters. Bundles.

I did say in that post, that little spell ended a couple of years ago now. It was out on other stuff before the caster capture to. But for four years or so. It came out on nothing else at all.

Wingham is and was busy. When them blokes caught the scaly, they were pretty much the only ones using 'them' on that lake, at the time of the captures. Might have changed a bit after both, but at the time they were pretty much the only ones using them. Most sort after fish in the lake, bundles of very good anglers and baits being fished. It only came out to one thing for a period.

I ain't got not papers, but I do have two PC's and a Mac full up with big carp photos though, of other blokes.
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   Old Thread  #142 3 Jan 2019 at 3.12pm Login so you can post / reply  Register so you can join in!
In reply to Post #137
You seem to just want a fight MM. I can't be bothered anymore, so I'll just post another photo, of another normal working bloke, with a special carp. A bloody big one to MM. I can do this all day. I'm not going to. You can threaten to 'analyse' what you like geez. I'll just post another photo of a big UK carp eh.

I'm off out on a date later MM, fishing can do one this week. So you can chuff away as much as you like in my absence. I honestly had PM's from people who know you of old it seems, and said you're a bit of a wally. I was also told you have done stuff like this on forums other than this one, with loads other than me. That you like to shout others down with science talk. You can shout as loud as you want to me mate... You're an internet warrior it seems MystyM. With nothing, but papers written by others to back you up. Why are you not making good money from it MM, and just getting all lemon about it on the internet? Please answer that question for me?

Got any photos of UK 50's to show me with your amino acid theory of greatness? Or is it just what you read off google, a paper by some Japanese koi expert? Oh dear MM, we are dealing with UK pressurised carp, not a classroom in the far east. I'm a bit different to them other blokes you always argue with about your theories MM. You see I'll just pull out 40's and 50's, one after tother, not caught by me, caught by others. You can't blatantly. Have a little think about that MM. Because even a blind man can see it. Some one like you, is never going to get what they desire really. You're to busy looking at everyone else. You're desperate for me to tell you, I know mate don't worry. Good luck with your 'analytical details' anyway.

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   Old Thread  #141 3 Jan 2019 at 3.08pm Login so you can post / reply  Register so you can join in!
In reply to Post #133
Hi PJ,
I Imagine NW will be able to give them your regards, because I'm not in touch with them any more.
Re my "mate" MM, both Viking and I have had many forum conversations with him but we don't swap spit or anything. He has always been very helpful in answering tech questions and correcting wrong assumptions.
I've had theories corrected in the past in the same way as his posts to you. There's no malice in it. He doesn't use insulting or condescending language. Just states scientific fact. He was not commenting on your actual bait making processes, but correcting your interpretation of them.
Anyway, as you said, the capture results of your bait have spread by word of mouth and the grapevine and have given you a successful business, so you're sitting pretty. That's all that matters.
BB.
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   Old Thread  #140 3 Jan 2019 at 2.58pm Login so you can post / reply  Register so you can join in!
Dont you just love a boilie thread!!
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   Old Thread  #139 3 Jan 2019 at 2.55pm Login so you can post / reply  Register so you can join in!
In reply to Post #138
That CV fish is a nice old one... Came out recently on casters to a friend of yours Mark... I'm sure you know that though.

Mysty/Chem (James).... Oh no.... Involuntary feeding again!!! I thought that one had gone away.... The claim made by a certain American scientist that was subsequently found to be lacking in trial evidence. If you can reference any validated paper on Carp, that proves that any feeding can be involuntary, then I'd be interested to read it. I mean proof, 100%.
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   Old Thread  #138 3 Jan 2019 at 2.35pm Login so you can post / reply  Register so you can join in!
In reply to Post #137
"Just as a footnote, I have full analytical details of most of the " top brand" boilies. Skipping through your latest postings I know now what commercial products you are associated with, and your single hookbaits are " on our books'"

All the chemicals that taste sweet to us humans are not necessarily sugars!"


To start with MystyM, you are not polite at all, as your own friend pointed out earlier you can be quite rude, and you still are now.

So let me get this right, you're saying that I am clueless, and the things I say are rubbish every time you have posted. Now you are saying you are going to analyse my 'single hook baits', and have been surfing my previous posts. Ah right, that's a slight sea change I guess.

No one said chemicals were sugars, except you. I may have talked about chemicals which mimic these sugars, yes. You can find out what ingredients you want... You don't have a clue how anything whatsoever post rolling is done. Or why. None whatsoever, what you think I've written any of it on here? Really?

Here's something for you to analyse again for now though MM.

The fish below in both these pics is now dead. It lived in Wingham. It was the fish which blew up to a silly size spawn bound. Now I've never even fished there, but that was the most sort after carp in there I was told, and a very rare visitor to the bank in earlier years. These two photographs span some three years or so. Before the first capture, it had not been caught for four years or something. No captures in between these. Both caught with the help of 'certain' things in this thread MM. Long time, only thing it came out on.

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View post on imgur.com


These two photos MM, these are of a famous CV fish. It's 50+ now. For four year period, ending a couple of years ago, spanning some five captures I think it was, it only came out on things mentioned in this thread. Long time, four or five captures over years, only thing it came out on.

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Apparently none of this is any evidence of anything at all, but you are going to see if you can find out what I'm up to. I'll let you into a little secret MM, I will not be looking into a single thing that you are doing mate. No need to, if you are such an expert, and I am so clueless, why would you need to analyse my stuff? I thought you knew about the best gear anyway? I must be the silly one though eh. I tried to be friendly to you a long while ago on this thread now. You want to have a row with me. Me and you are never going to agree about oil. You think one thing, I know another. Just get over it MM. Analyse what you want. You won't be the first
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   Old Thread  #137 3 Jan 2019 at 1.46pm Login so you can post / reply  Register so you can join in!
In reply to Post #80
I am usually quite polite in my postings; but when you accuse me of producing "random stuff that is a load of twaddle" when it's derived from research driven evidence on a worldwide basis, and scientific qualifications at a very high level, then you must expect a response. I am also a passionate carp angler, fishing mainly on the continent.

Skipping through your latest offerings the following comment looked quite " interesting"

"Hemp and tigers are more attractive to carp than ANY enzyme bait EVER produced, off the scale more FACT .What's being spoken about in this thread, I.E. fermenting things......"
A very sweeping statement, exactly how have you established this " FACT"?

Regarding fermentation and enzymes, I have purposely kept the info below at a very basic level ; but can elaborate further if required.
Fermentation is the breakdown of a substance by yeast or bacteria or other similar micro organisms.
In terms of fermentation referenced to fishing baits this falls into two camps;

Fermentation of sugars using yeast - major products alcohol and carbon dioxide

Fermentation of animal and vegetable protein containing substances using bacteria/micro-organisms -major products amino acids

Enzyme treatment, referenced to fishing baits, refers to the hydrolysis of proteins to form amino acids , and more rarely breakdown of complex carbohydrates to sugars.

Amino acids at the right concentration and mix will produce an intense feeding reaction, which, depending on other physiological parameters , will be involuntary.
Sugars cannot do this.

Fermentation processes used to produce amino acids cannot be controlled/ manipulated to produce the optimum required mix of amino acids to give maximum feed stimulation , the enzyme treatment , when carried out correctly, can get very close and other systems involving amino acids even closer.

Nature and evolution has largely fixed the chemicals that will induce carp to feed and ensure the species survival, amino acids are " top of the list"

Just as a footnote, I have full analytical details of most of the " top brand" boilies. Skipping through your latest postings I know now what commercial products you are associated with, and your single hookbaits are " on our books'"

All the chemicals that taste sweet to us humans are not necessarily sugars!
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   Old Thread  #136 3 Jan 2019 at 1.24pm Login so you can post / reply  Register so you can join in!
In reply to Post #135
It will mate.

It's like this a bit Viking, a lot of anglers don't seem to understand this either in the UK. You must do as you worked for a big firm. If some boiled bait is good at catching carp, like really good. The British carp grape-vine will do the rest. You cannot make a bait that catches so many fish, and every sod does not find out about it pretty quick. Even if five blokes are using it, if it is what it needs to be results wise... Nothing would stop it working commercially, nothing. Five blokes would be doing amazing things. Everyone would find out quick enough, don't you worry. Then everyone would want it themselves. But the results have to be exceptional though for that to happen. If it does not happen, then unfortunately, it's just not as good as you think it is to work commercially. If it was, there would be no stopping the masses wanting it. When you have companies with monstrous turn overs and advertising budgets in the UK bait industry, who you have to compete with, it has to be very good to survive. When I started, I obviously took business from others. Because the landscape has changed slightly since then. My customers came from somewhere, and effected some one else's commercial interests because of it. That leads to politics. Not forum politics, real life politics. Pop up mix pop ups, are a big money maker, cheap to make, monstrous profit. I used to get blokes crying to me about cost, when they are comparing two things, where the profit margin on one is maybe 30%, and the other has a profit margin of maybe 2000%, after going through two sets of hands, through a shop. Which one is expensive again? Carp anglers don't get all that really, until they see for themselves. What they do get though obviously, is results. Results determine absolutely everything. Pop up mix can't compete, with real food base mix, that is 'working' the bait itself, with the liquids as well. It has no chance at all. Surely everyone can equate to that, if nothing else. If I wanted to make an absolute shed load of money quickly, there would be a standard pop up mix '2. I'd make a fortune. But they would not work, not in any way shape or form like they do. Results are everything, so there has never been a pop up mix pop up, from us yet. Everything is proper food, and it ain't got a jot to do with some nice smell. They will out fish your current great pop ups, by some margin, and I don't even need to know what they are. They just will. Bold statement to a former big European bait firm man, because I bet you have some real good stuff to play around with. Watch. If you can go out in a boat, and look after you get a bite, you will find the free freezer baits will all still be there, if you put any in. That will not be happening with your current great pop up mix pop up, I'll bet. The free bait will all be gone before you get a bite. When that happens, please just even PM MystyM, and let him know that that's what actually happened please. That will do for me. It's almost unfair giving them to you in Norway, never sent them to Norway. You're about to experience something different Viking.

As I said earlier, talk is cheap, that above in the first part of this post is what will determine if you are going to be able to make a living from it or not. Not chatter on any internet forums, that's for sure. You may sell some one something once in that scenario. Better to sell them something proper, which they will beat your door down for in the future when they trawl a load of fish. Results are everything.

You'll do well Viking, put them in any half decent anglers hands, and they always do good things with them.
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   Old Thread  #135 3 Jan 2019 at 7.04am Login so you can post / reply  Register so you can join in!
In reply to Post #133
Hi Paulie,
Looking forward to try it. If it significantly outfish any other bait I throw at it, I will take my hat off in public.
I think I might have sussed out, at least partly what you do. If I am right it sort of makes sense and you gave me some new ideas to try out.
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   Old Thread  #134 2 Jan 2019 at 11.24pm Login so you can post / reply  Register so you can join in!
In reply to Post #106

Hi Nick,

I got onto the Liver after you first posted about it many moons ago. In fact, at the time it was not a flavour as such...



I think I sent you the recipe before I 'gave it away', and for some reason I recall you asking Bill what type of flavour it was as you PM'd me back.

Sadly I had a Rod H moment as I didn't write down the pm you sent back, which also included some of the results with your playing around with the bait, but I think you found it worked a bit better than the standard Trigga. (I could be wrong).

I was working on the liver thought for a few reasons;
In pet foods it is used as 'flavour enhancerí, it is sprayed onto numbers of dog foods to get them to take dry biscuits.
One of the products by Howard E. Loeb Ė a biologist from the United States Ė described as a carp attractor.
Digested Liver has been a reliable factor in fish meal recipes for many years. It is rich in vitamin B12 and is abundant with free amino-acids, therefore improving the nutritional value.





Paulie,
You credit me with some knowledge, Thank You, but it is often just experimentation to see if I can improve what works. I knew Trigga base mix with the Trigga liquid was going to work, I'd used the original, had caught on it (a lake record fish at the time), but reckoned improving the palatibility would make it a better bait when compared to the standard bait. When I got onto a new syndicate, I was seen putting in plenty of boilies, catching a fair few and was asked what bait they were. I told most of the truth, "Trigga".

I didn't tell the rest of the syndicate about the additions.

The Trigga as mentioned in my reply to Ken, I thought Liver and Sweet Cajouser would work together, I knew that Trigga and Trigga liquid could be improved on.

Every now and again I come up with ideas, like mixing Nutramino, Iso-Eugenol with Cinnamon Oil and Peach Nutrafruit, adding a dash of Sweet Cajouser, which was the liquids of another bait I worked with.
Notice a theme here? I play with the liquid and powder content to create or improve a reaction.

I don't usually have the time to completely formulate a bait from scratch like the big boys at Mainline or Nutrabaits used to, base mix and all. I do sometimes have time to play with additions and additives to the base mix.
You CAN have a 'Eureka moment.
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   Old Thread  #133 2 Jan 2019 at 10.47pm Login so you can post / reply  Register so you can join in!
In reply to Post #132
Well give them both my regards BB. It's a shame that they can't post on here. Thank you mate, I'm normally always in good spirits.

Here is another example for you BB. A friend of mine now, he's not the best angler in the world by his own admission. So a much better example. He was a former professional footballer though. And he knows how to pull a sort alright. He's a teacher, so he gets very little time to fish. Anyway, he fished RP for five years. Never caught a bean. Nothing, him and his mates really struggled.

Give them something that really works though, and he caught thirteen the next year, on very limited time again, including the most sort after in the lake. Full time consultants/top rods who had always called this bloke a nod, catching, none. He had this out of that blokes swim, after he had just done three nights in there and blanked. He went in there, and had this on a single, within an hour. Zero in five years, to superhero in quick time. That is pretty good proof I'd say. Circuit water with a whole host of top anglers on. Teacher, no time, could not catch one for years.

Suddenly, he starts flopping out fish like this, one after tother, on very limited time. No one was calling him a nod anymore anyway. Stuff like this, is the only reason anything ever worked out in anyway for me. Results, nothing else. In todays bait market, as Dean and many others found out BB. You need something really special to compete. It's not like back in the day. Every sod is at it now, and it grows daily. If you do not have the real deal... You ain't lasting five minutes. Famous anglers think they can just magic up some famous bait. It does not work like that though. Big money men think they can pump money at it, copy something else and achieve something easy. It ain't anything like that at all. They may get a couple of years or more out of it, then they get found out really. Whatever you do, if it is any good, it will be copied within five minutes. They will all try to copy it anyway. When in reality, they don't have a Danny La Rue those sort of people. If a lot, are trying to copy what you are doing, if others want you to go formulate their baits for them, based on this photo below (that consultants massive firm) and a whole heap more photos's of weekenders with the good uns. I'd say that is proof enough, that I can hold a conversation about bait, with out being spoken to like a wally BB by your mate. I like you BB, you're a genuine bloke I'd say. Trust me, if anyone on this thread, comes up with a freezer bait lets say, that makes a real difference to anglers up and down the land, they will succeed with it. I started a business with absolutely NOTHING, just hard earned knowledge. I'd been sick and off work for two years nearly. What chance is there that a bloke and his mate, in a kitchen with nothing, could start something that is still going, and so much bigger seven years later? How could that happen, if it did not do the do in the current market? Do you know how many business have come and gone in the same time in angling? No new bait every year here. No need. No more proof for your mate MM I promise now BB. I have already noted that he has none bless him, and disappears when I mention it. he must just talk a great game. Have a fantastic evening mate.

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   Old Thread  #132 2 Jan 2019 at 9.57pm Login so you can post / reply  Register so you can join in!
In reply to Post #127
Hi PJ,
That's what I meant. You can't prove it without giving the game away. But you have done what you can by showing the end results.
I'm sure Dean is okay. He and Pete joined a new syndicate this season. One that NW is on.
I'm pleased for you that you are in good spirits.
BB.
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   Old Thread  #131 2 Jan 2019 at 9.48pm Login so you can post / reply  Register so you can join in!
In reply to Post #129
I have a PM box full up with new PM's Perry in the last two hours. It will take a while to reply to them. I mentioned earlier that I use a fake name on Faceache, and that I do not want 5000 friends. The reason, is this. I love talking about it mate it's my life long passion. But then everyone wants to message, or wants a discount... I'd be the same LOL. I get aggro for not answering our work phone. Well when a number is on the internet, you get calls all day long. Like all day long, from India trying to sell you web blah blah, from Hong Kong trying to sell you whatever. Or carpers asking you silly questions. It's like a hotline if a number is on the internet. Customers always get told, texts only, you'll get a call back. No one ever listens.

It may sound mad, but I bet none of you actually like talking about work, when you are not at work. If anyone talks to me about pop ups while I'm fishing... They learn quick that I'm not at work . Everyone wants to talk to me about work, while I'm fishing these days. It's the worst thing I ever done for my fishing. I turn my phone off for two or three days... Only put it on when I need to use it. Never look at the internet. Go fishing to get away from work, but it's always there, and never goes away. You can't be rude to some beaming bloke, who thinks you are brilliant, because he caught a lovely fish. But it changes everything for your fishing. Some love you like that, most affiliated to other bait firms, hate you. Because carp fishing is tribal. Changed my fishing forever. I ain't a business man, I'm a fisherman.

I once answered the phone by mistake at 11pm on a Sunday night. I was in bed with the missus having a cuddle, but thought it maybe a family emergency. It was someone who had brought £100 worth of hook baits, and wanted to know what ones to use, in a specific swim he had just arrived at, on some far away lake. I stopped him as he was telling me the depth and bottom make up, swore at him a lot, and told him never to order F all from us ever again the weirdo. You know when you get 'disturbed'? I had the right ump. Cheeky sod! I now turn the work phone off, and have another number lol. Folk are strange.

I'll chuck you in something Perry anyway. PM me the name if it's not Perry. We've been busy last couple of days. Viking had a Norway name and was very obvious

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   Old Thread  #130 2 Jan 2019 at 9.19pm Login so you can post / reply  Register so you can join in!
In reply to Post #128
Then you get some, who think that adding some coconut flavour to a load of rubbish, will make a Cell equivalent.

Exacltey that, smells like it but ainít nothing like it, one round ball ainít like another, despite what some people like to think or are told to think
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   Old Thread  #129 2 Jan 2019 at 9.06pm Login so you can post / reply  Register so you can join in!
In reply to Post #109
If I give you some grief, can I have a discount?
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   Old Thread  #128 2 Jan 2019 at 9.01pm Login so you can post / reply  Register so you can join in!
In reply to Post #104
Nick knows his stuff. Some real sense in your post Nick. When you add things to your bait, you can change it. The sum of the parts, is very different, if certain things are added. Then, you don't just have your original ingredients and the stuff you added. If the things added are the right type, you will create extra 'stuff' in your bait. Nothing you have actually added, or was in there. Something that was produced, because of what you done. You changed the sum of the parts Nick. What you done was very simple. But it's exactly the same thing really as I have been speaking about, in a roundabout way. And as you found, it works alright.

As you say, you can find out the ingredients of the Cell from the bag. What you cannot find out, is what occurs when the liquids and the powders are added together. That's the real magic. The man who designed the Cell, is one of the real hero's in carp bait. If he was the type to seek public glory, he'd be as revered as any man to do with carp bait in my opinion. He's not bothered about stuff like that. The Cell is the greatest carp catcher of all time at a guess. It's caught more carp than anything else. Then you have Grange, same blokes. Then you have Activ-8, same blokes. Three of the most, if not the most, effective freezer baits ever made. Internet chatter is one thing, anyone whom has ever used one of those baits, well they know don't they.

Then you get some, who think that adding some coconut flavour to a load of rubbish, will make a Cell equivalent.
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   Old Thread  #127 2 Jan 2019 at 8.49pm Login so you can post / reply  Register so you can join in!
In reply to Post #96
Oh I can prove it BB, don't you worry about that. But by doing that, I would be giving far to much away and telling every sod exactly why they work so well. I think I have held my side well enough, in the proof stakes anyway. That's a shame about Dean, I hope he is still carp fishing.

Oh I'm happier than most BB .
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   Old Thread  #126 2 Jan 2019 at 8.11pm Login so you can post / reply  Register so you can join in!
In reply to Post #123
The only big 'Gun' you used to take to Pascales was the one you slept with incase i came for a midnight visit
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   Old Thread  #125 2 Jan 2019 at 7.53pm Login so you can post / reply  Register so you can join in!
In reply to Post #123
I had his number, when he started chatting me up about the 'boat' in the pike pics

I sorted something out today Mr-Magoo, well, I'm actually astounded. If it actually comes off, I will remind you back to this post, and let you know that it was what i was talking about today. I could not be any happier if I tried I think. Something epic, really epic. I can't stop having massive touches regarding my fishing at the moment! This is a proper one though, and very nice indeed.
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   Old Thread  #124 2 Jan 2019 at 7.50pm Login so you can post / reply  Register so you can join in!
In reply to Post #119
2, 3, 4, all are based on exactly the same stuff. 3 get lied about, everybody that uses 3's and clumps them (plenty), tells everyone else they are using 2's (sneaky)... Because 2's are the well known ones. The 2's, 3's and 4's are all as good as each other. 2's or 3's at a push.

No offence, but can we please get back to fermenting boilies now. I know it's my fault for bringing it up during conversations. But I don't pay the forum owner anything for advertising. So it would not be fair really. I might get banned to. I hope it brings a few more members here for him.

The world is dumbing down, every sod just wants to post photographs on social media. I like to talk.
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   Old Thread  #123 2 Jan 2019 at 7.21pm Login so you can post / reply  Register so you can join in!
In reply to Post #121
Be careful round old bivvy mate heís grooming you.. itís what he does , remember that big gun I had at pascals foz that was on his Hookbaits
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   Old Thread  #122 2 Jan 2019 at 7.16pm Login so you can post / reply  Register so you can join in!
In reply to Post #119
I would definitely take a look at the S2 range mate. And also for something a bit different, take a look at the F1ís. Iíve had plenty of fish on both of these.
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   Old Thread  #121 2 Jan 2019 at 7.02pm Login so you can post / reply  Register so you can join in!
In reply to Post #115
I already got your name Viking from the order. I went and peeked. Cold water? Oh they will work even better in cold water don't worry. I will send you some nice bits. We send all over Europe mate, Slovenia, Belgium, Holland, Germany, Spain, France on a regular basis. There's sneaky Euro's who all know. They all order three tubs or more, and we always waive the extra postage costs. That's how it always works with you Euro's.

It's all good mate, I'm only jesting anyway. 3-1? These will out fish those, 5-1, at least. Watch. I'm going fishing tomorrow, no work here yet we're still off
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   Old Thread  #120 2 Jan 2019 at 7.02pm Login so you can post / reply  Register so you can join in!
In reply to Post #118
Come on i had a 50/50 chance
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   Old Thread  #119 2 Jan 2019 at 7.02pm Login so you can post / reply  Register so you can join in!
In reply to Post #109
So what ones would you say are your best hook baits Mark?
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   Old Thread  #118 2 Jan 2019 at 6.59pm Login so you can post / reply  Register so you can join in!
In reply to Post #117
Where you drink Hansa and piss out Ringnes
It's the other way around, you heathen!
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   Old Thread  #117 2 Jan 2019 at 6.39pm Login so you can post / reply  Register so you can join in!
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Where you drink Hansa and piss out Ringnes
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   Old Thread  #116 2 Jan 2019 at 6.30pm Login so you can post / reply  Register so you can join in!
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Bivviewrecker, I go to the grim places where you just pay a lousy £7
Paulie, sorry about the postage, I guess thats what you get for letting foreigners order without checking their location
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   Old Thread  #115 2 Jan 2019 at 6.20pm Login so you can post / reply  Register so you can join in!
In reply to Post #109
Hi Paulie,
I don't complain about prices as long as buying is voluntary. I just noticed a lot of people do.
40 gram of a bait I sell cost about the same as one of your pots. The usual bait used for ice fishing is maggots, and a 40 grams of my bait equals about 100. However, we too have a lot of labor going in and development costs was huge.
I think you can just click my profile to see my name, if I am mistaken just send me a PM. Swap my order for whatever you think is best. I fish pretty unpressured waters, and temperatures is usually low, if any of that matters. It will probably ice over again soon and there may be a lid for a few months up here so I may not get out anytime soon so no hurry. I will try your baits in a fair way and I am pretty honest, often too honest according to the wife. I have earlier made some popups that in one 500 hour trial outfished other baits (of the test anglers choice) 3 to 1 as single hookbaits and I will fish them against these. These are not for sale as I have been concentrating on bait for different species the last years. I just make some for my own fishing.
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   Old Thread  #114 2 Jan 2019 at 6.17pm Login so you can post / reply  Register so you can join in!
In reply to Post #111
Viking is a good lad, hes paying £11 a beer out there no doubt mate, based on that you should send him a pot
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   Old Thread  #113 2 Jan 2019 at 6.12pm Login so you can post / reply  Register so you can join in!
In reply to Post #100
Thank you mate, that's very kind of you. It's much appreciated.
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   Old Thread  #112 2 Jan 2019 at 6.08pm Login so you can post / reply  Register so you can join in!
In reply to Post #110
Jeez Bivvywrecker, look, there was Viking moaning about the price of certain things... And yet he's only paid £4.50, for his one tub, to go recorded and signed for delivery to Norway! Cost me about £11 that will! Viking is costing me money BW! Isn't it lucky that I'm such a nice guy, and will pay Vikings extra postage myself, and give him some lush freebies to.

And he had a go at me earlier. I tell you, I'm a saint I am BW.

Now, can we please stop talking about that side of things... I'll get banned. And I'm meant to be on a day off to thanks!

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   Old Thread  #111 2 Jan 2019 at 6.02pm Login so you can post / reply  Register so you can join in!
In reply to Post #110
I don't roll them myself anymore mate. Not for a long time now. But I made your mix up, I cured your baits when they were rolled and dried. I made the base mix from scratch, maybe some of the liquids from scratch to, or certainly played around with them first anyway. But I did not roll them mate, can't do it all. I'd never get to ever go fishing if I even tried.

Ahhhhhh thank you, Viking was Northern Baits was he? Should I sort him right out with some bits bivvywrecker? What do you recon?
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   Old Thread  #110 2 Jan 2019 at 5.53pm Login so you can post / reply  Register so you can join in!
In reply to Post #109
Ill raise a glass next time i tie one on now i know how hard your grafting

Northern knock out a decent bait since Viking ****ed off
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   Old Thread  #109 2 Jan 2019 at 5.50pm Login so you can post / reply  Register so you can join in!
In reply to Post #107
And if you check a bit harder Viking, you will see we often go months, and months without posting anything at all. And have never 'bought' likes like the rest all do. You can buy likes lol. Ours are all proper. To busy most of the time keeping up with all the sods who all club them with them. And certain other bait firms, have history of offering them 'deals' and promises of stardom, as soon as we put their pics up anyway lol. Can't make it to much busier though anyway, when the stuff is, palm rolled, and then worked on big style afterwards for a long period of time. Cork balls are £215 for 5000 give or take. A human being, can physically roll maybe four or five tubs per hour, if they are quick, with some one else making the mixes. All the other materials, all the other work post rolling that goes on with them being 'cured' five times. They are well cheap lol. I have to mill all the base mix myself to. Poor me. A pot of standard pop ups costs 10p to make, and sells for £6.50... The coating that you paid £2 extra for. It costs as much as that per tub to sort out after everything else, honestly. They cost me money pretty much the coated ones, if it was not for loyal customers, who would have an absolute hairy fit if we did, they would be discontinued... And I would tell the carp world how to do it themselves. Not sell it in a kit form, and it all falls off in five minutes flat.

The ones you ordered, are not the best ones IMO. I'll sort you out don't worry, we've spoken for a bit, and I'm not tight. PM me the name on the order. We have another type, like a super cork ball, which you can pierce. Better.

This late spring coming, you must promise to come back here and tell the truth though. I'll send you something... I'll have a friendly bet with you to, that it will out fish anything else, you put next to it, by some margin as well. You will see.

If you are dishonest, you could come back here and say whatever you wanted. I get the impression you are an honest guy though Viking. You'll absolutely club them on what I send you, if you fish well.
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   Old Thread  #108 2 Jan 2019 at 5.21pm Login so you can post / reply  Register so you can join in!
In reply to Post #99
Then, I am a scientist to Viking in that case lol. It's only trial and error that learnt me any of this, no one else taught me anything really, apart from the very great man that you mentioned in your post with his stuff. He understood particles better than anyone to. I'd bet money, if he was here right now, and a member of this forum, he'd have a wry smile at certain posts. I produce my own liquids for our stuff, I don't put stuff untouched into them, that has been purchased. That would just be the same as what everyone else does. Who wants to be the same as everyone else? You'll just get the same results. There is no man made liquid in existence, that cannot be made better than it already is, in terms of effectiveness/attraction. Not one. Even the way liquids as we know them, work under water. take any liquid produced for the carp market to work in carp bait. How it comes, is not the best it can be. There's other ways, that involve removing a lot of the rubbish, that is not actually needed in there. You see, carp flavours as we know them, even the best ones. They are often on bases, which are not the one. Even the right ones, can even be improved by concentrating them. When you take away the bad parts, and are left with the good parts, the good parts are more concentrated. More effective. Certain things, can actually change the way that it actually then moves through the water. You can have it one way, where the attraction slowly meanders it's way around... Or you can have another, where the same stuff, just more pokey, moves through the water column and mass... Like a thunder bolt of electricity. Same orginal stuff. Bit of work, bit of effort. Hey presto. Very different end result.

Sneaky humans in the USA, worked out you can do a similar sort of thing with decongestants. They get their scientists hats on, mix things, dissolve things, break stuff down, and go through a process. That long process leads to the very dirty drug, called meth amphetamine. Something FAR stronger than what it started life as. Now to me and you it is decongestant... To a man who knows more... It's one of the most addictive drugs man kind has ever seen, after he has played around with it a bit.

You don't go to prison for making carp drugs
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   Old Thread  #107 2 Jan 2019 at 5.15pm Login so you can post / reply  Register so you can join in!
In reply to Post #98
Hi Paulie,
If you can sell at that price and get 14k likes on Facebook you are obviously doing something right.
I had a look around and I see you get mixed reviews on this and other forums, but a lot seem to rate your baits.
I haven't bought a bait, hookbait or other in 8 or 9 years but now I ordered a pot of the S1s.
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   Old Thread  #106 2 Jan 2019 at 5.06pm Login so you can post / reply  Register so you can join in!
In reply to Post #104
Hi Nick,

I got onto the Liver after you first posted about it many moons ago. In fact, at the time it was not a flavour as such...

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   Old Thread  #105 2 Jan 2019 at 4.50pm Login so you can post / reply  Register so you can join in!
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   Old Thread  #104 2 Jan 2019 at 4.50pm Login so you can post / reply  Register so you can join in!
In reply to Post #57
Human beings, dependant on area, genes, tribe or race have different preferences in tastes. A simple example in that is chocolate. British chocolate is sweeter than American chocolate, which contains a higher level of N-Butyric acid.

We are nearly all thinking sweet sugars, normally sucrose, but there are varies sugars, even in savoury foods. I would not call cows milk sweet, and am in fact missing the gene to allow me to process milk sugar, lactose.
Most sugars end in 'ose', but there are others like inositol.

Strangely enough, even though you prefer crisps, there are sugars in there as well as salt.

I think that what has been alluded to through this thread is mixing of sugars in a bait is what makes some low nutritional value baits so effective, add in some enzymes, a bit of fermentation, a feeding trigger and from a 'normal' bait you suddenly have the best thing since the humble tin of sweetcorn.

I know I can read anything going on nutrition in carp that is published, I can also formulate a bait that is a definite catcher, however any bait baron or bait company is going to have to keep some secrets.
Oceanic proteins? Bet you that is listed as a bait ingredient somewhere, yet it is not the whole story.


You can find out the ingredients of The Cell from the bag, it is printed on there, but there has to be a secret, be it the liquid ingredients, or the mix of flavours that may work together.

I can give you an example of two of my points, (albeit one in a hidden form, you'll have to have a dig around to find where).
Trigga, a great bait in its own right, it worked well for me, but I found by adding Green Lipped Mussel Extract, Betaine HCl, Liver Elite and Sweet Cajouser made my mix even more effective than the plain standard, which it outfished.
Those additions complimented the bait.

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   Old Thread  #103 2 Jan 2019 at 4.38pm Login so you can post / reply  Register so you can join in!
In reply to Post #99
Draw the line, we are all scientists

Whether that be the man in the shed or the highly educated man in the lab in the white jacket using a structured or analytical approach, itís the results and then conclusions that matter. You could argue the man in the white jacket but thereís only one judge and thatís a carp in this instance, bait making, its results
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   Old Thread  #102 2 Jan 2019 at 4.34pm Login so you can post / reply  Register so you can join in!
In reply to Post #98
Brilliant

No surprise to me at all that, you are only as good as the bait you are using

I bet that pissed a few of the Fame seekers Hard core real carp anglers off
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   Old Thread  #101 2 Jan 2019 at 4.28pm Login so you can post / reply  Register so you can join in!
In reply to Post #96
Pete still posts on the BCSG forum, BB, and yes you're right, still makes the Enzyme bait but mainly for his own use.
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   Old Thread  #100 2 Jan 2019 at 4.26pm Login so you can post / reply  Register so you can join in!
In reply to Post #97
Good God no Ken.

Mark, whatever your doing your captures certainly tell a tale, proof is in the pudding and all that, all the best to you.
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   Old Thread  #99 2 Jan 2019 at 4.18pm Login so you can post / reply  Register so you can join in!
In reply to Post #94
And whether that be trial and error or some scientific bollox. Let the fish do the talking

Science is basically trial and error, it's just sat in a system and performed by people in white coats.
What Rod Hutchinson did with his tank testing to make Scopex was science too, pretty close to how many tests are performed in the feed industry today. However, he never wrote a paper on it, or documented it (as I know of) but I would still call it science.

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   Old Thread  #98 2 Jan 2019 at 3.58pm Login so you can post / reply  Register so you can join in!
In reply to Post #94
I'm proper chilled out mate honestly... I have tunes playing on the sound system, and I'm quite relaxed I promise.

You could not be more right Scozza, results, that's it. Anything else, is just chitter chatter.

View post on imgur.com


View post on imgur.com


View post on imgur.com


That above is 3 x 40+ from Burghfield, first trip. It's supposed to be pretty tough right? Everyone makes out it is. I caught five on my one and only trip, and the only reason I probably never caught the common, was because a new time limit had just been introduced. Before that week you could full time it, but a new stay rule had been introduced. It had shown on my last allowed morning, right on the money, when I caught one of these 40's. It came out the water three times. I hit that bite more gingerly than any other before. It was a 43lb mirror. I've never been so disappointed to catch a 43lb mirror. Lot's of my friends all knew as it was happening, as I sat there for a couple of hours, hoping next bite was BC, it was not, had the 43 as I packed up. It came out next day, when I was not there, from the same area. Ah well.

Now what did I put out there, to provoke a reaction like that on Burghfield? Is it because I'm a super angler of some description and should wear a cape? Or is it because, maybe, just maybe... I might have a little clue what I'm talking about regarding stuff in this thread? Ask any RP angler that fished there when I did, if they could ever work out why the fish seemed to show one after the other, where I fished last, even when I was not there. Like on an incredible scale. Ask Gaz Fareham. They never worked it out, some anglers who you all probably hero worship. A goodish carp angler is one thing, understanding attraction in carp, and what really kicks it off, is another entirely.

View post on imgur.com


I can post many hundreds, if not thousands of photos, of other anglers with very impressive big carp, to prove a point. There is no point to prove though, as you say Scozza. I'm just bored over the Xmas period and rambling on a carp forum. As Viking pointed out earlier, loads have sold far more bait than me. So why do I have all these impressive photo's of others then, in that scenario? Normal working blokes to, not consultants or 'stars' who fish full time? I'm going fishing soon, don't worry. I'm chilled though Scozza, to old to get all hyper these days on a thread on the tinterweb
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   Old Thread  #97 2 Jan 2019 at 3.49pm Login so you can post / reply  Register so you can join in!
In reply to Post #95
Does she know that you wrote that!
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   Old Thread  #96 2 Jan 2019 at 3.49pm Login so you can post / reply  Register so you can join in!
In reply to Post #93
Hi PJ,
I can fill you in on some details from your post.
You won't have been talking to Pete B on this thread, because firstly, he would use his own name and secondly, I don't think his presence would be welcome.
About 18 months ago, Dean came back on the B/F and the old UCN enzyme was discussed and after a lot of positive feedback from a lot of members, he decided to try and resurrect it under the name of UCN2.
Unfortunately, after a few months of research, Dean came to the conclusion that he would be unable to do so.
The last I heard from Pete on the B/F was that he continues to make enzyme bait for himself and close friends.
Of course, it's a no brainer that you don't reveal your bait making secrets, but that creates an impasse, because, even if you knew scientifically, exactly how it works, and which receptors are triggered etc. you are unable, for very good reason, to reveal it. And your own admittance of a lack of general bait science, which leads to inaccuracies in your explanations, then doesn't show you in a good light. Your hookbaits may be the best thing since sliced bread, but you are unable to definitively prove it.
Anyway, it's no big deal and as you said, you are in a good place and doing well for yourself.
BB.
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   Old Thread  #95 2 Jan 2019 at 3.45pm Login so you can post / reply  Register so you can join in!
All very interesting stuff but either way all above my pay grade, fermentation is an interesting word used a lot throughout the thread, my misses is fermenting at the moment and I won't go near her.
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   Old Thread  #94 2 Jan 2019 at 2.32pm Login so you can post / reply  Register so you can join in!
In reply to Post #93
My advise, chill out mate, you have nothing to prove

From an angling perspective there is only one single thing that matters, results

And whether that be trial and error or some scientific bollox. Let the fish do the talking

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   Old Thread  #93 2 Jan 2019 at 1.44pm Login so you can post / reply  Register so you can join in!
In reply to Post #91
I am 100% certain that Pete and Dean's bait was exceptional Woody. No arguments from me. They wanted me to use it when I first started my business. Lot's of people wanted me to use their bait. They also wanted me to make some hook baits for them in their bait. Lots of people wanted me to make hook baits for them in their bait Woody. Not because I'm good looking either Woody. It was because certain 'things', were out fishing everything else 10-1 all over the gaff. I'm positive if I had of used Dean and Pete's bait.... I would have caught plenty, because you, and others say so Woody. I spoke to both Pete and Dean, Dean got hook baits from me very briefly, probably for previous reasons above. He did say some stuff to me about trouble he had with his bait. Other people are spouting names to me Woody, and then insulting me. I can insult them to. They are probably dragging others into their argument. So is MM PeteB, or some one else?

Boilies ain't my 'thing'. My 'thing' is hook baits. I deal in attraction, not nutrition. Now I'm no genius, I have a friend who's knowledge far outweighs mine, about all things boilie. Massively so. I'm no scientist, I'm no literary genius, I was a plasterer for twenty years, I ain't going to be. But hook baits, or more importantly attraction... Nah Woody, that's my 'game' that is. I damn well know my onions about that stuff, as good as any man alive is my guess. I'm very lucky, in that I now get to play with some space age 'stuff'. Stuff I would never normally be able to get my grubby mitts on. Everything we talk about in this thread, is ten-fifteen years old or more to me now. I make an alright living, and I get smoke blown up my bottom on a daily basis. Only because some carper just caught more carp, than he ever had before, or broke his PB. I have no need to argue mate. I'm a very happy guy indeed. I get to go fishing when I want. And make money out of what I am talking about on this thread. Enough to make me happy. That probably does not sit that well with some people on the internet. The best form of advertising, is not the internet. The best form of advertising, is some average working Joe, going and destroying his tough syndicate on a weekend. That sort of advertising, works better than any other. It means something. All his mates and everyone on the lake are customers within three days, customers who don't jog on five minutes later either. Real life in the bait industry 2018. Not Facebook, not Instagram, not CarpForum. Real life.

The carp world is a very funny old place. The business side of it is even funnier. I come from London, I was a builder most of my life, who fished. I am used to dealing with 'straight' people in real life. For the past six years my business has been carp bait. The 'carp world', is not like my 'real world' at all. It's dog eat dog. Super tribal. Lots of jealousy. And everyone (well not everyone) but most, want to just copy each other.

I can salute Dean & Pete, because if nothing else... They was doing their own thing. Is he still making bait? I hope so, Have I been talking to him at any point on this thread Woody? I hope he is well. He seemed like a really nice bloke in my limited dealings with him.
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   Old Thread  #92 2 Jan 2019 at 1.14pm Login so you can post / reply  Register so you can join in!
In reply to Post #86
I'm still here mate. You're welcome. I hope some of it catches you a few extra fish. It will.
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   Old Thread  #91 2 Jan 2019 at 12.36pm Login so you can post / reply  Register so you can join in!
In reply to Post #90
Hi mark, i am not trying to pick an argument here and to be fair my own bait knowledge is quite limited but when i use something that works and works well then i know it is a good bait.

Enzyme baits there are some that have been sold that i believe aren't really any better than a standard fishmeal bait and some so called active baits, but one of the baits ucn made really was good and for me was considerably better than any other boiled bait i have used prior or since, i have used a lot of commercially available baits and imo nothing came close as a boiled bait.

i know the problems dean had when rolling the bait and understand why it is no longer available, i certainly wish it was!
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   Old Thread  #90 2 Jan 2019 at 12.17pm Login so you can post / reply  Register so you can join in!
In reply to Post #85
"What ever there is still no scientific answer as to why tigers and other particles are so productive... I know there is one it's just not been determined yet...but it doesn't stop me using them."

Thanks Christian. You have to understand mate, that I am talking to you lot on here, and having to be VERY careful about what I say. That's for commercial reasons. Some internet tittle tattle, does not matter to me more than that. I'll just stop talking about bait on here.

I could write out a post, that would completely blow everyones mind about 'stuff' like this, and how it can be incorporated with man made liquids that we all use. But I can't, because I'd be giving it all away. I ain't going to do that. It may seem random that I pull out photo's of 50's caught the day before... But it's one bit of evidence I can produce without spilling my guts. I run a business, that in a roundabout way is based on 'fermenting' boilies. Trust me, I do know my stuff about this one subject. Far, far better than any scientist to.

I've already given some REAL gold dust bits and bobs away on this forum, if people were paying attention. The clever ones were paying attention. Some just want a row.

I only deal in real world Christian. The reason that your highlighted comment above is so important, is one of the things being spoken about right here in this thread. I can tell you why they work so well. Your comment about alcohol, it's produced by sugars. You're bang right, you're there. What you suspect, is correct.

Hemp and tigers are more attractive to carp than ANY enzyme bait EVER produced. FAR more, off the scale more. FACT. What's being spoken about in this thread, IE fermenting things........

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   Old Thread  #89 2 Jan 2019 at 12.17pm Login so you can post / reply  Register so you can join in!
Apologies for the multiple posts fat finger syndrome
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   Old Thread  #86 2 Jan 2019 at 12.15pm Login so you can post / reply  Register so you can join in!
Typical, just when some thoughtful threads and posts gain momentum it all gets a little bit personal and boom end of thread. Is it any wonder forums like this are dying when sly digs and abuse kill threads like the one here. I liked Paulie j 's posts as it got me thinking about a few sugar related ideas that im going to try out and for that im grateful to him, if they fail so be it but at least he planted a seed.which im hoping will give my bait a little extra. I suppose its easy to sit there in judgement and rubbish peoples theories and quote scientific facts that counter the argument but the fact remains that paulie's baits work for him and others and we may never know 100% why but give the man credit for trying
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   Old Thread  #85 2 Jan 2019 at 12.00pm Login so you can post / reply  Register so you can join in!
In reply to Post #79
"the stuff he posts often has no relation to the real world, often is completely wrong"

MM I cannot agree with the first part of your comment, for the first time in a long time on this forum I am picking up ideas that I can try out easily in my own fishing...ie in the real world. I know that attracting carp to my bait goes far beyond the amino acid attraction that you and BB seem, well at least to me, not able to see beyond. PJ has some very good ideas that he has picked up from experience which appears to have been over a long period...ie at least from his posts it appears he operates in the real world.

Yes I know he gets some of the chemical processes mixed up but even so I can I understand what he's on about. The only thing missing is that the link between yeast and sugar and the result... alcohol... seems to be ignored. I suspect that fermentation and the resultant alcohol is a big a part of the attraction as the actual sugar.

What ever there is still no scientific answer as to why tigers and other particles are so productive... I know there is one it's just not been determined yet...but it doesn't stop me using them.
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   Old Thread  #84 2 Jan 2019 at 11.55am Login so you can post / reply  Register so you can join in!
In reply to Post #82
Hi Viking, I was replying to your post yesterday as you posted this. Yeah I get it totally Viking, I'm very well versed in the internet and bait chit chat. I understand totally that MM is never going to agree with anything I say... Because I laugh soooo hard that carp can't detect oil. He does not like that, because it contradicts what he says.

Don't post it here mate, many, many people will be watching this thread, which will never comment, or even be active members of this forum, you know that.

I've had stuff of my own, scientifically pulled apart by others in laboratories, to find out what's in there. I know, I've been told that it was done, and by whom. Luckily for me, ingredients are not the be all and end all. End result of a process is. You can't find what's in there, when the ingredient we are talking about in this thread, is 'made' after the bait is rolled. And not with one specific ingredient. If it was not for this little fact, there would be exact copies. There is not.

It is a magic ingredient Viking. You can't buy it in a bottle, you have to produce it yourself, and it can be stabilised.

I am done with this thread now mate. It always gets silly. It always will.
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   Old Thread  #83 2 Jan 2019 at 11.41am Login so you can post / reply  Register so you can join in!
In reply to Post #78
Hi Viking, mate, I was trashed yesterday, forgive me, new years day and all that. I did tell you I was having a drink! Four glasses of champers and I was bandy .

I don't quite agree about the enzymes though mate. They do not create the same thing in any way shape or form. I've tried them. And I know, that I have something else which will out fish that 10-1 anyway. It does not involve enzymes. Unless I am creating them without knowing about it.

Enzymes have gone no where in the past ten years really. There is no major bait firm pushing enzyme baits really. If they were as effective as some make out, oh they all would be trust me. It's a multi million pound industry that does not miss a trick.

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   Old Thread  #82 2 Jan 2019 at 11.38am Login so you can post / reply  Register so you can join in!
In reply to Post #81
Hi Paulie,
MM is just pointing out that your writings s in conflict with known science. This is not his opinion, but facts proven through repeated experiments. I understand it may come across as rude but some of the things you claim is like saying the world is flat and that you can make water run uphill. When doing that one should not be insulted when corrected but possibly try to learn a thing or too.
MMs opinions on baits is purely science based and you will find it is hard to prove him wrong. I know that based on many discussions in the past. Now in my opinion there is more to baits than amino acids and I have been involved with testing myself that show different substances play a part. However this is nothing I will post here.
As for having success, I work with bait full time. But as I am located in Norway I have chose to concentrate on other species than carp. At least for now.
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   Old Thread  #81 2 Jan 2019 at 11.12am Login so you can post / reply  Register so you can join in!
In reply to Post #73
Hi BB. Thanks for that information, I'm a bit clueless as to who they all are. As your friend MM has just shown, they are all so stuck in their own personal ways, I find it hard to talk to them myself.

I stand by what I said before, if any of these blokes had the real deal, or knew what they were really talking about, they would be making good money from it. Unfortunately to my knowledge, none of them are. They maybe used to at one time or other, so what happened? If it's so great, why is everyone not using it now? I don't understand this myself. Maybe I'm just stupid, or rambling, or talking 'nonsense' eh. Maybe all of the many hundreds, if not thousands of personal messages I have, from complete strangers... Thanking me for helping them, or theirs catch more carp than they ever have before, are all nonsense to. They must be. I could bring an entire army of anglers here right now if needed, to tell MM that they will not even go fishing without them, period. There is no need. He's right of course, and I'm the idiot.

End of discussion.

Have a great day BB, and good luck for the future mate.

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   Old Thread  #80 2 Jan 2019 at 10.54am Login so you can post / reply  Register so you can join in!
In reply to Post #79
Ramblings? Jeez, it's very little wonder you argue with so many people MM is it? You're actually quite rude aren't you. I had various PM's from people right at the start of this conversation, telling me that you're an absolute idiot, and to ignore you lot. I choose not to do that, I choose to talk to you. BB seems like a sound man, you seem like an internet idiot though, who hunts in pairs. So I think I will ignore you.

As for posting photo's of myself, I see you make no comment at all, about the photo's of the bloke with the brace, and the photo of the bloke with the 50lb+ common. Where's your photographs of blokes out in the last few days MM, catching big UK carp, with your ramblings? Do you not have any? Do you just talk about it on the internet? Oh right.

Mug.





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   Old Thread  #79 2 Jan 2019 at 9.07am Login so you can post / reply  Register so you can join in!
In reply to Post #75
BB
Yes I did say that ; but after reading all through PJ' s ramblings late last night, and a nice bottle of red, I couldn't really see the point in doing so. l agree with Viking, the stuff he posts often has no relation to the real world, often is completely wrong, and often involves the rewriting of proven chemical reactions/laws ( not theories or myths ) that are taught in schools and universities all over the world.
Here's just a few examples

description of fermentation is effectively the reverse of what actually happens

"Activating sugars" to increase their chemoreceptive "attractiveness" -not possible

Heating oils to " get them "working "under water- no

Proteins can be fermented to produce sugars -not possible

Natural sugars being one of the best attractors for carp-no

The sugar chemicals in man made sugars being different to natural sugars -no
Sucrose in refined sugar is identical to sucrose occurring naturally in sweetcorn etc

Etc, etc, etc

Posting a photo of a carp does show he can catch carp, however using the photo as evidence to disprove established and proven laws /rules /reactions in chemistry/ biology
Is a bit of a nonsense
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   Old Thread  #78 2 Jan 2019 at 7.46am Login so you can post / reply  Register so you can join in!
In reply to Post #70
Hi Paulie,
I am not sure "magis, natural sugars" is the correct scientific term, but I get your point.
Fermentation is the source of a lot of good things. A lot, if not all of this can also be achieved by adding enzymes. This will give a more controlled result, but also complicate other aspects. I think the success of "active baits" is due to substances being so perishable that the full effect will be hard to achieve in shelf life baits.
Probably a reason Mainline is based on freezers.
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   Old Thread  #77 1 Jan 2019 at 10.03pm Login so you can post / reply  Register so you can join in!
In reply to Post #75
Hi mate, tbh Iím not bothered either way, whoís right or wrong. Interesting reading though all round
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   Old Thread  #76 1 Jan 2019 at 9.33pm Login so you can post / reply  Register so you can join in!
Interesting thread!!

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   Old Thread  #75 1 Jan 2019 at 9.06pm Login so you can post / reply  Register so you can join in!
In reply to Post #74
Hi scozza,
MM said in his last post that he will come back on and post about oils and sugars, so I'm content to leave it to him as I'm not clued up enough to comment.
However, from memory, I imagine he will say that oils can't be solubilized and that carp have no receptors that could detect them anyway.
There, I stuck my neck out.
BB.

PS.
It's a shame that we are unable to access the B/F and all the pages of the bait discussion forum.
That holds a wealth of useful info and many of us used to refer back to it like a text book.
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   Old Thread  #74 1 Jan 2019 at 8.38pm Login so you can post / reply  Register so you can join in!
In reply to Post #73
And if you make them soluble or release the fatty acids

We went down this route before as to whether oils were olfactory or gustatory and the common conception at the time was the taste in the water column, interesting really



Hi Paulie, Mark lol

Iím aware of the grange, never used it been a Northern lad, Activ 8 was the one around me. I saw what it caught and thought, thatís a bit special. I even bought a bit myself and took it to other waters and the fish responded well, quickly
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   Old Thread  #73 1 Jan 2019 at 8.21pm Login so you can post / reply  Register so you can join in!
In reply to Post #69
Hi PJ,
Pete B was one of the 2 bait experts on the B/F along with MM as the other.
Yes, Pete said carp can't detect oils because they are insoluble in water.
There were many very lively threads on the B/F discussing oils, essential oils, salt, sugars and flavours.
However, to his credit Pete, by creating his UCN enzyme bait, produced a bait that most of those who got to use it said was absolutely in a class of its own and head and shoulders above any other bait they had used.
Read the UCN thread on Fishingwarehouse and judge for yourself.
BB.

PS.
If by chance, the moderator you mentioned earlier was Dean Cowell, then he was the one who actually made the UCN bait.
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   Old Thread  #72 1 Jan 2019 at 8.12pm Login so you can post / reply  Register so you can join in!
In reply to Post #71
Thanks mate, happy new year. Active-8 was even better, but Grange came first, and was virtually as good as Active-8. I've caught nice carp on Activ-8 this year in fact. I'm a lucky lad in that I get to play with some high tech bits, that I would not normally be able to at a guess. My home stank of A8 for two weeks this summer just gone. It was very nostalgic. I had twenty kg of freezer bait three days later.
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   Old Thread  #71 1 Jan 2019 at 8.01pm Login so you can post / reply  Register so you can join in!
In reply to Post #69
Cracking post mate as usual, Activ 8 changed the shape of carping around me imho, caught everything, respect to the the guys at mainline at the time, they made a stepped change in carp angling

And I didnít use it to start with
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   Old Thread  #70 1 Jan 2019 at 7.55pm Login so you can post / reply  Register so you can join in!
In reply to Post #68
Yes I do cook oils Viking, I've spoken about that before online, so no harm in that. Certain oils that are advocated as great, actually work crap in water, and bait. But pop them into the oven for an hour on a low temperature, and everything changes. The oil itself changes. Think of it like chip fat running cars. It will not when it is raw chip oil, but after it has been cooked, it becomes an entirely different beast. Same happens in how that oil then works under water funnily enough. How it congeals, emulsifies, everything.

Heating sugars is a delicate thing though, it's very easy to go to far and mess it all up. But heat promotes fermentation, so obviously heat plays a very important part in everything yes.

Heat and sugars help create fermentation, (that does not mean full grown mould) which in turn creates magic natural sugars. Be that apples, be that grapes, be that maize, be that whatever. None of that is the be all and end all, it's just another little part of the puzzle. Anyone who drinks cider, or wine, eats a variety of foods, are consuming fermented stuff. None of that is rotting is it. My dogs adore dried duck fillet strips... They go wild for them. Far more than fresh meat... Because they have a much stronger, and nicer taste.

Edit. I did actually write two more paragraphs to this post, but they were just far to 'dangerous' to actually post, whatever way I tried to say it.
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   Old Thread  #69 1 Jan 2019 at 7.19pm Login so you can post / reply  Register so you can join in!
In reply to Post #64
Thank you BB, you to mate. I've never read that thread you mention, I will dig it out at some point and have a good read. I'd much rather have a sensible discussion. I have to be careful what I say BB, I have history of opening my mouth on the internet, and others acting on it, in a commercial way. I remember PeteB from Cemtex. He was alright, a nice bloke any time I spoke to him. Is it him who says oils don't attract carp?

The one freezer bait, which I think changed a whole lot BB, in terms of new stuff, that was not just regurgitating something else somebody else had, over and over... Was Grange CSL. That bait changed things big time, first it was an incredible carp catcher, in that it just worked on another level, anywhere and everywhere. In a mad way at the time. And second, it was the first real popular mainstream bait of the newer era, that focused on things other than nice smells, when they were not really needed. It smelt weird. I never bothered with the plum version By jove it caught some carp! That two part CSL activator, was the key is my best guess. You see, you can have liquids which smell really nice, or you can have liquids that change the way the actual base mix works itself. So you have a liquid, which is 'active'. Active base mix ingredients, can be transformed by active liquids. It is this sort of 'thing', which leads to Nirvana in attraction I think, and the near perfect bait. In terms of it's era, Grange was so ahead of its time.

There's a song, who's message I love, I was actually in the 'class of 97' to, so I've always remembered it my whole life. This is a verse from it...

Be careful whose advice you buy, but be patient with those who supply it. Advice is a form of nostalgia. Dispensing it is a way of fishing the past from the disposal, wiping it off, painting over the ugly parts and recycling it for more than itís worth.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MQlJ3vOp6nI
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   Old Thread  #68 1 Jan 2019 at 6.39pm Login so you can post / reply  Register so you can join in!
In reply to Post #39
Hi Paulie,
So my guess is by heating the oils and sugars you are forming volatiles like aldehyde in the oils and various other substances through Maillards reactions in the sugars. Some of these substances may well work as attractants if I remember right.
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   Old Thread  #67 1 Jan 2019 at 4.54pm Login so you can post / reply  Register so you can join in!
In reply to Post #65
Hi JS,
No, I think Apps is correct and he is Dean Towey.
He was on here as Saggybelly and got banned I think.
I've got no connection to any bait co.
I'm just interested in how bait works.
BB.
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   Old Thread  #66 1 Jan 2019 at 4.18pm Login so you can post / reply  Register so you can join in!
In reply to Post #65
Thought that was Dean Towey?
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   Old Thread  #65 1 Jan 2019 at 4.03pm Login so you can post / reply  Register so you can join in!
In reply to Post #64
Bb are you the guy behind scientific baits?
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   Old Thread  #64 1 Jan 2019 at 2.54pm Login so you can post / reply  Register so you can join in!
In reply to Post #62
Hi PJ,
Thanks for your kind words.
I enjoy the challenge of trying to understand bait science and in my search for info, I try and remain open minded and take on board what info comes my way and see how it might fit in the bigger picture.
In this particular case, it seems that science is saying that carp are indifferent to sugars and on the other hand you are saying they are very effective, especially when you 'work' on them. I understand that you can't give a full explanation of your process to protect your commercial interests.
There will be a definitive answer in there somewhere as to what the reality is and I will keep looking for it.
Actually, my main focus of research at the moment is enzyme usage. The amazing success of Pete B's UCN enzyme bait of ten years ago encourages me to try and emulate it. If you are interested, you can read the 36 page UCN thread on the F/W forum.
Yes, forum rivalry and tribalism are rather pointless and childish and inhibit sensible discussion.
Better to remain civil and debate politely to try and reach satisfactory conclusions.
I wish you well in your work and fishing in the coming spring.
BB.
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   Old Thread  #63 1 Jan 2019 at 1.13pm Login so you can post / reply  Register so you can join in!
In reply to Post #55
"Scientifically we know very little regarding sugars in the carps diet, we know little on how it affects them, however plenty of human food manufacturers have discovered that sugar is 'addictive'."

Nick, the people who are at the top of human food industry, and behind the science of this stuff, are billionaires. They know.

Animal feed suppliers at the top of the global game know to. Most carp anglers probably think betaine was invented for their bait, by some bait guru.

Everything you said there regarding taste is golden. Carp anglers are obsessed with smell. Sugars and salts concentrate on taste, not smell. Because they have no smell, carp anglers have ignored them for many years. Yeah they may have clocked onto salt a bit now en masse... But sugars, carp anglers, and bait makers in general, are so far behind the game it's unreal. The whole industry gets stuck in its ways I think. "They made this, it works, copy that smell/ingredient" most of them. The cycle repeats, over and over.
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   Old Thread  #62 1 Jan 2019 at 12.48pm Login so you can post / reply  Register so you can join in!
In reply to Post #53
I hope you had a good evening BB, I did. I swear, I'm not bothered who you are mate. I'll talk to you. I'll talk to MistyM. I'll talk to Viking, I'll talk to anyone about bait. Part of the reason I have a different username from the start, is down to stuff like this which I'm well versed in. I did actually reference your papers in my little science rant, kind of. They are clueless BB (not you BB). Honestly. Some of the stuff I see written by these people, I just laugh as it's so funny compared to the actual reality. You seem like a nice man, and you know your stuff about science and bait without question. Don't get to bogged down by what these people who write these papers say though BB. Natural sugars, are one of the biggest keys to great attraction in a carp bait. Manmade sugars which mimic similar are great to, they were designed for that exact purpose. But they are still not as good as the natural ones.

We could play a small game BB. I would have £2 total to spend on some ingredients. Someone else, would have £100. We would both make a kilo of bait. Mine would be some semo, some soya, and a couple of other cheap ingredients because I only have £2 to spend. Theirs could contain the very best of whatever they wanted. They have £100 for a kilo of boilies. Anything and everything they need or want in there.

I would bet money, my bait will be better than theirs BB, results wise. Only because I would work on them after they were made, to activate the natural sugars inside the bait, from some simple ingredients. I would also have some natural oils doing the do for me. All the man made stuff for the carp bait market, in their £100 per kg super dooper best ever, could never be sold bait. Would not mean a thing to the carp in most cases. Those natural sugars and oils will. So for some man to say, who has never fished for carp like we do, that carp cannot detect oil or sugars amuses my silly brain, that's all.

Let's just forget all the normal silly internet tribes, and old forums. It don't matter does it really. The bait world is so tribal these days on most lakes. Most of the circuit waters, have little 'crews' or whatever, from whatever bait companies. Surely we can be a bit more civil than all that sort of caper? I will not be about long anyway BB. It's Christmas, my traditional break every year. In no time at all it will be Spring. I will either being working mainly, or fishing when I'm not. I don't do 'internet' whilst I'm fishing either. So my time here will be very, very limited soon.
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   Old Thread  #61 1 Jan 2019 at 11.54am Login so you can post / reply  Register so you can join in!
In reply to Post #60
Hi Linc's carper,
An odd few tinker with enzymes for a while, but then give it up as too difficult.
If, as you say, you've managed to hydrolyse a mix and produce a bait that works well, then you've done very well.
The why and how of enzyme usage is highly advanced chemistry, post A level grade and above and requires the use of high tech lab equipment, therefore, laymen like us have to glean what info we can from test papers etc. and use trial and error to try and produce a successful result.
Best of luck with your tinkering,
BB.
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   Old Thread  #60 1 Jan 2019 at 10.44am Login so you can post / reply  Register so you can join in!
In reply to Post #59
Hi bb. I haven't jacked it in mate, still tinkering lol. I still love the reactions etc but I'm happy with the resulting substances that work well. What I've become less interested in is why the carp love it, I just know that they do. As you said I was getting brainache trying to work out why and how they can detect it, I just know that somehow they do.
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   Old Thread  #59 1 Jan 2019 at 9.58am Login so you can post / reply  Register so you can join in!
In reply to Post #56
Hi Linc's carper,
It sounds as if you may have jacked in the protease experiments.
Mind you, I know too well how it can give you brain damage.
Anyway, each to his own. As you say, if it works, it works.
Although a few of us get a buzz from the how and why.
Horses for courses as Paulie J might say.
BB.
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   Old Thread  #58 1 Jan 2019 at 9.56am Login so you can post / reply  Register so you can join in!
In reply to Post #56
The thing for me is that some people do not appreciate that catching a carp revolves around a certain set of circumstances, the biggest one is the fish. I donít think anybody has perfected it because if they had they would be one dimensional, doing the same thing over and over again with the same bait. It just simply does not happen because as usual, the little bit of magic that you found gets lost, probably due to waiting too long for the circumstances to repeat themselves and the confidence goís or the fish have a different preference

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   Old Thread  #57 1 Jan 2019 at 9.43am Login so you can post / reply  Register so you can join in!
In reply to Post #55
I don't take sugar and much prefer savoury things to sweet stuff?
I can turn my nose up to cakes and sweets but could easily eat umpteen bags of crisps.
Not sure what that means..............just saying
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   Old Thread  #56 1 Jan 2019 at 8.22am Login so you can post / reply  Register so you can join in!
In reply to Post #54


I used to get bogged down with the science side of it all but I'm now very much in the camp of if it works then it works. I no longer care if or how they detect sugars but I know that with some glucose in a bait seems to make it better even if it's just for a quick energy hit.. it seems to work better in a lower protein higher lipid carb type bait.
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   Old Thread  #55 1 Jan 2019 at 3.58am Login so you can post / reply  Register so you can join in!
Let me sling this in here;
I drink coffee or tea, but I have sugar in it. I can drink it without, but it is more palatable with sugar.
I enjoy sweet foods, cakes, pastries etc. I have sugar on my cereal, porridge, corn flakes, everything.

My dog, who is a freak loves eating brown sugar. If I forget to put my sugar (I only use soft brown sugar) in the cupboard, she will unscrew the jar lid and eat it.

Bait related?
Think sugars are definitely taste enhancers, but are they also feed inducers?
I am positive that sugars are put in many animal feeds and human foods to get us to eat them, and not just deserts.

Natural sugars in foods, you just think sugar, sucrose, but fruit sugar, fructose; milk sugar, lactose; glucose and many more, it could well be depending on our taste, we enjoy eating apples, or sweet satsumas for example.

Scientifically we know very little regarding sugars in the carps diet, we know little on how it affects them, however plenty of human food manufacturers have discovered that sugar is 'addictive'.

Incidentally, I do know that growth and feed efficiency in carp was experimented on with a-starch, dextrin and glucose compared to other foods. The three mentioned were the highest rated.
Carp are able to utilise carbohydrates effectively, for energy, as well as lipids/fats.

While not covering everything this may be of use:
nutritional requirements link
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   Old Thread  #54 31 Dec 2018 at 9.52pm Login so you can post / reply  Register so you can join in!
In reply to Post #52
Interesting reading as usual

I can see the scientists point of view try to understand ďwhyĒ

And from a fishing perspective, it just does, who gives a ****

Aquatic life is aquatic life, if they find something tasty they eat it, even if they do get their mouths torn off. I just see it as the temptation factor, do you or donít you
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   Old Thread  #53 31 Dec 2018 at 9.49pm Login so you can post / reply  Register so you can join in!
In reply to Post #51
Hi PJ,
We seem to have some misinterpretation and misinformation to iron out.
My ref to who you are and the F/W forum was in explanation as to how I know you have a commercial interest to protect. With ref to the F/W forum, I recently joined it, but have never posted on it and am almost certain that MM hasn't posted on it, or is even a member. I only came across the thread in question when I was surfing the threads for interesting topics. MM and I have never spoken or posted about your business.
I have no interest in hiding my identity and my forum profile has my full name and Gmail address if anyone wishes to contact me. Both MM and I came on here from the black forum after it closed down. It was called the B/F because it used black pages with white type. Its actual name was Carp-forums .com.
In my last post, my ref to intimidation was my view on maintaining forum etiquette and was certainly not a veiled ref to you. I was agreeing with you about being polite.
I didn't actually say that carp aren't attracted to sugars. I referred to that paper re sucrose palatability and simply asked NW, who I know from the B/F, in what way do sugars influence chemoreception. I didn't ask you the question because we both know you don't know the answer.
It's just a simple, genuine question. As I said in another post, I maintain an open mind and if sugars do induce a feed response then they must trigger some of the carps receptors.
BB.

Happy new year to you too.
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   Old Thread  #52 31 Dec 2018 at 8.21pm Login so you can post / reply  Register so you can join in!
In reply to Post #2
I'm beginning to wish I never resurrected this thread
Glad I just buy a good quality bait and use it
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   Old Thread  #51 31 Dec 2018 at 7.32pm Login so you can post / reply  Register so you can join in!
In reply to Post #50
I now know who you both are to BB. Friendly informative pm's from strangers. And your reference to that forum. I only ever posted on there, because you lot were discussing my business. My friend was a moderator, and told me of you, and probably MistyM and pals talking about my stuff. I also hear your from this much spoken of on here 'black forum'. Never heard of it personally. There's no intimidation here BB, I just posted some physical examples of what I was talking about in this thread. It was you, who popped up after one of my posts, saying something about sugars not attracting carp. So although you did not speak directly to me, we both know who you were speaking to. So I replied. I have not pushed things since that reply.

Happy new year BB.
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   Old Thread  #50 31 Dec 2018 at 7.04pm Login so you can post / reply  Register so you can join in!
In reply to Post #48
Hi PJ,
Yes, I understand your reticence to elaborate on your sugar theory to protect your commercial interests, because I know who you are and have read all your stuff on Fisherman's Warehouse.
Yes, it's best to remain polite even in the face of intimidation. I think it reflects more on the attitude of the accuser than it does on you if they vent their spleen.
Anyway, compliments of the season to you and have a great night.
BB.
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   Old Thread  #49 31 Dec 2018 at 5.00pm Login so you can post / reply  Register so you can join in!
In reply to Post #46
The two photographs, were caught on hook baits that rely on both, sugars, and oils to work so well. So I think they were topical to the discussion Viking. I'm glad you have mate, you're not in the minority. Loads of people have sold more bait than me, tonnes of people. They all sell through shops though, we only sell, direct. I do not agree with everything BB & MM say either, I bet they don't with me either. That's life, and discussion. Science is often sooo wrong about carp bait. That's fact.

As for real world and you're opinion about what is right and wrong, do you want to see lots more impressive photographs of normal working blokes, with some of this countries best carp? I'm sure you don't. But you get my point.

It is just bait mate, and happy new year to you. I'm going to get blotted tonight I think Viking. I rarely ever drink, but tonight, I might just throw that out the window.

Have a great one Viking.

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   Old Thread  #48 31 Dec 2018 at 4.53pm Login so you can post / reply  Register so you can join in!
In reply to Post #45
You're right BB, I am unable to answer your chemistry questions. The honest reason, I am not going to answer your questions regarding 'sugars' acting as feed stimulants, or tell you much more than I have about that, is for financial reasons. I'm not going to just give it all away on a forum now am I? That would be so incredibly stupid. One thing I'm not, is incredibly stupid BB. I can be polite to, there's no need for any underhand sly comments is there? I'm well versed in the 'internet', for some time. Yes you're right, hundreds of big carp are caught a season without 'sugars', but we are talking about a little bit more advanced stuff than that, aren't we? I thought we was anyway. Thanks for admiring my enthusiasm. I just admire big carp.

Happy new year mate, i hope both you, MistyM, and everyone else who reads this, has a great evening.
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   Old Thread  #47 31 Dec 2018 at 4.51pm Login so you can post / reply  Register so you can join in!
In reply to Post #44
I find neither you or the points you make boring, just the bickering
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   Old Thread  #46 31 Dec 2018 at 4.39pm Login so you can post / reply  Register so you can join in!
In reply to Post #43
Hi Mark/Paulie
Now this is getting a bit silly. You get some serious, fact based answers and reply by posting pictures of fish. This does not prove anything.
Anyone who has sold bait, that be made out of fish meal, plastics or semolina will be able to produce that.
If selling baits is what makes you knowlegdable, I can contribute to the pissing contest by saying I am pretty sure I have made and sold more baits than you have.
I do not agree in everything BB and MM says, but I know they know their baits and that their posts show they have a much deeper understanding than you do.
You don't have to understand the science to make a perfectly good bait, but when you post your theories as they are facts you should expect people to reply. Especially when some of the theories does not have any contact with the real world at all and is downright wrong.
Happy new year, and remember, its just bait.
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   Old Thread  #45 31 Dec 2018 at 4.17pm Login so you can post / reply  Register so you can join in!
In reply to Post #32
Hi PJ,
I thought it impolite not to answer your post.
I haven't posted you before because I know you are unable to answer my questions, as you've said yourself you don't understand the science. You can state all the anecdotal evidence you like, but that doesn't tell me how and why sugars act as feed stimulants. Hundreds of big carp, I imagine, are caught each season without the addition of sugars. Does that prove anything?
By the way, how do amino acids figure in your bait formulation? Do you consider them to be the main feed trigger?
I'm sure you haven't upset MM and certainly not me either.
I read all your posts and admire your enthusiasm.
BB.
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   Old Thread  #44 31 Dec 2018 at 3.20pm Login so you can post / reply  Register so you can join in!
In reply to Post #42
Hi Runneil,
Sorry if I'm boring you.
Perhaps you can bring the subject to a conclusion by answering my question?
BB.
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   Old Thread  #43 31 Dec 2018 at 3.17pm Login so you can post / reply  Register so you can join in!
In reply to Post #39
"When I get a little more time I will respond to your oils and sugars tirade in a way that perhaps will enable you to understand how it all fits together".

Thanks MystyM, it was not a tirade. It was my thoughts. Sorry if I replied to your friend and upset you.

I'm just going to leave this here. Two photographs of customers of mine. Both with new personal bests, both caught last couple of days.

I have permission to use their photos, so I will post them here for the sake of this discussion. One is a 50+ Uk common, from a highly pressured venue. The other photo, is a brace of big carp, from a no fishing urban venue. All caught, with many others, past few days. Now both of these blokes MystyM, and many thousands of others, tonnes, will tell you the same thing. You're barking up the wrong tree mate, if you can't produce such physical evidence as this at the drop of a hat. These two have had a great Xmas hauling big carp. Don't worry about having more time, honestly. It will all be lost on me what you're going to say, not being rude. What matters, really to me, is photographs like these two MistyM.

If you and Butterbean, can pull out photographs like this, from the past couple of days that back up what you say. I will take that as physical evidence, that I need to listen to you, real hard to. When you, or your friends come out with, lets call it random 'stuff', that i think is a load of twaddle, I will say. Soz. I will produce so much physical evidence, to back up any claims I might make though. Not old ones, like proper recent ones like these two.


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   Old Thread  #42 31 Dec 2018 at 3.13pm Login so you can post / reply  Register so you can join in!
In reply to Post #41
FFS both of you give it a rest sooooo boring on an otherwise good post 😧😧
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   Old Thread  #41 31 Dec 2018 at 3.08pm Login so you can post / reply  Register so you can join in!
In reply to Post #40
Hi NW,
You are perfectly entitled to your opinion of my credibility, but I will just comment on two points.
When you studied for your degree and then PhD, did you not use the ideas and knowledge of others, namely, your tutors and text books to form your opinions? How else does one learn?
I assume it took you 5 years at Uni to earn your PhD. Well, surely in 8 years of casual bait study you would concede that I would have learned something of bait science?
Anyway, you have not attempted to answer my simple question. I don't know the answer and would like to know how and why sugars are considered to work as attractants.
By the way, I too have an album of big pit carp, not that it proves anything other than it is not necessary to sugar your bait to catch them.
BB.
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   Old Thread  #40 31 Dec 2018 at 2.15pm Login so you can post / reply  Register so you can join in!
In reply to Post #37
Hi BB... Yes.... We've been down this route before so it is really very dull to go through this theoretical argument again and again on different forums, with someone, that let's face it, doesn't even fish anymore, whose ideas are merely those of others and reworded, and someone that was around during the developmental days of bait development but has only made his own bait over the past 8 years!

Yes... I do use proteases.... And as you know, I also use essential oils, and will continue to do so. You might not think 2 drops a kilo makes much difference... That's your opinion. My opinion, a bit like Marks, is evidenced in a photo album of big pit carp.
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   Old Thread  #39 31 Dec 2018 at 1.23pm Login so you can post / reply  Register so you can join in!
In reply to Post #15
"Base mixes that contain things that tend to ferment, and create sugars, like seed, nut, certain proteins that kind of thing... These will create natural sugars, magic ones."

Fermentation, in this context, does not produce sugars it consumes them, although yeasts can split sucrose ( table sugar) into its component parts of glucose & fructose , prior to the ongoing consumption of these sugars.

Some ingredients in their natural state provide sucrose, glucose ,fructose etc, salt will not affect their concentration ; but fermentation will, it will reduce or eradicate them

There are no magic " natural" sugars, all sugars are specific chemicals conforming to a generic molecular structure,

Proteins cannot be " fermented " to form sugars.

In reply to post 18
Whey is not produced by fermentation; but by acidic/ enzyme coagulation of milk


In reply to post21
Amylase can react with some starches to form maltose/glucose, in the context of this thread I would have thought a mixture of alpha and beta amylase would have been a better choice , anyway
much easier to just add glucose to your mix.

In reply to post 32

You cannot dismiss basic laws of chemistry/ biology/ physics as rubbish just because you cannot grasp or understand them and how they relate to carp fishing

When I get a little more time I will respond to your oils and sugars tirade in a way that perhaps will enable you to understand how it all fits together.
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   Old Thread  #38 31 Dec 2018 at 1.22pm Login so you can post / reply  Register so you can join in!
In reply to Post #36
Where to start?
To dismiss scientific research and methods is very naive.

"Some scientist doing studies on baby carp in a tank, has very little to do with us trying to catch heavily pressured big carp. The two just don't match up in anyway at all. The stuff these scientists say, is always the total opposite in reality."

"God" as you called him used tank testing to develop Scopex and other flavors. I would say that worked out ok?
Other pioneer bait makers did the same. This method is also used in the multi billion feed industry. Not as the only method, but in addition to to field trials.


" Your scientists say carp can't detect oils. Rubbish."


What scientist ever said that? This show you have not read or understood the scientific research on the subject.
Scientists say fish can not taste triglycerids, which makes up a part of oils. Then some forum "bait buff" read this as fish can't detect oils.
This is then repeated in typical parrot manner leaving half the fact outand the resulting myth is that fish can detect oil. The result is some other clueless person says science is stupid.
"Oils" in this definition including several thousand different chemicals which is oils in name only and of several which science has shown to be both attractive and palatable to fish.


"Your scientists may tell you that sugars have a low palatability rating, but I know different in attraction terms for the carp we fish for.


Science says one particular sugar (out of many) have low palatability in carp when fed as a single substance. Again, this is repeated by people without a clue and the result of chinese whisper is the myth that sugars have no use in bait.

Oh, and using catch pictures to prove a point is just silly, especially without any statistics to back it up. As you know, people catch on absolutely everything.
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   Old Thread  #37 31 Dec 2018 at 1.17pm Login so you can post / reply  Register so you can join in!
In reply to Post #31
Hi NW,
Nice try Naz. Turn the question around and aim it at me.
I simply asked in what way do you think sugars influence chemoreception?
I remain open-minded and have no fixed opinion either way, although I tend to lean towards scientific evidence as opposed to anecdotal evidence, given that for 50yrs, research into carp physiology and chemoreception has more or less, discovered every compound that affects attraction.
You as a PhD in biology will certainly understand the parameters of scientific validation.
What puzzles me is, if sugars have such a profound effect on attraction, surely they would show that effect in research testing, in the same way as AAs do?
BB.
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   Old Thread  #36 31 Dec 2018 at 12.24pm Login so you can post / reply  Register so you can join in!
In reply to Post #35
Works on every lake mate.

Every living animal/fish/human being on the planet, barring a few micro organisms, have salts and sugars in their make up.

To try and say that sugars don't have much effect on a carp, well. That's so silly to my simple brain, that it's unreal. Nearly as silly as oils don't. Whatever some bloke who wrote a paper says, however qualified he is. I'm more qualified in catching or helping others catch big UK carp, than them anyway. His tank tests and papers, qualifications, mean sod all to me.

Rod Hutchinson, Gary Bayes, Morgan, Bowers, Willmott... I could go on and on and on. Are or were any of them scientists? Not that I know of. Do they all know how to make a truly great carp bait? Of course they do. Did any scientist ever make a truly great carp bait? Not that I know of.
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   Old Thread  #35 31 Dec 2018 at 11.08am Login so you can post / reply  Register so you can join in!
In reply to Post #32
Yep.... As Mark just said.... Worked on Roach from 1990 to er..... Still!!!
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   Old Thread  #34 31 Dec 2018 at 10.42am Login so you can post / reply  Register so you can join in!
In reply to Post #29
Try chucking a little bit of icing sugar into your dustings as well Mereman, as well as what you already do. It will help 'things' along nicely.

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   Old Thread  #33 31 Dec 2018 at 10.06am Login so you can post / reply  Register so you can join in!
In reply to Post #28
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   Old Thread  #32 31 Dec 2018 at 10.02am Login so you can post / reply  Register so you can join in!
In reply to Post #27
BB, that just made me laugh, virtually as much as the one about oils not attracting carp either... Seriously, where do you guys get this stuff from?

Some scientist doing studies on baby carp in a tank, has very little to do with us trying to catch heavily pressured big carp. The two just don't match up in anyway at all. The stuff these scientists say, is always the total opposite in reality.

Example. Everything that carp find attractive in a big way, contains oil. Not man made oil, natural oil. You may not always know it's even there. But it is. And the fish love it. Hemp, tigers, peanuts, fishmeal... I could go on all day. Any seed contains oil... Super attractive to carp. Any nut contains oil... Super attractive to carp. Fish meal contains oil... Super attractive to carp. Natural oils. Your scientists say carp can't detect oils. Rubbish.

Example two. Everything that carp find attractive in a big way, contains sugars. Not man made sugar, natural sugars. You may not always know it's even there. But it is. And the fish love it. I could go on and on writing the same as above, but there really is no need. Your scientists may tell you that sugars have a low palatability rating, but I know different in attraction terms for the carp we fish for.

Physical example three. The fish below is 52lb+. When it was caught, I had ten kilo of heavily fish oiled up pellets and heavy fish meals out on a spot. You can see it is windy. I had an oil slick of some acre in size hitting the windward corner where the carp were sitting. I watched this carp and quite a few others, porpoise through the oil slick like dolphins, and follow it to my spot. Five minutes later I had landed the biggest carp I ever have. On a hook bait that had so many 'sugars' in there, that it's likely no more could be physically got in there at all. All the bait was still out there. It done it's job, and so did the hook bait. I did not want them to eat it. I wanted to catch them. And catch them I did. Oils and 'sugars' caught that carp for me.

Koi keeping, and baby carp in fish tanks, has very little to do with UK pressured big carp that we fish for.

So trying to use one, as a rule for the other, is a bit silly I think.

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   Old Thread  #31 31 Dec 2018 at 9.05am Login so you can post / reply  Register so you can join in!
In reply to Post #27
BB.... The paper you refer to covers only sucrose, and deals with juvenile fish..... If you don't think that any form of sugars attract, perhaps you'd like to explain why, and also explain why tigers work?

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   Old Thread  #30 31 Dec 2018 at 7.53am Login so you can post / reply  Register so you can join in!
Thanks for the replies all. Sounds like there are lots of fans of using active baits when they are starting to "ripen". The yeast mentioned and using sweet ingredients over fishmeal all makes sense. As a short session angler my baits turning too far shouldn't be a problem. Many fish get caught week in week out on stabilised hookbaits "from a pot". My thinking is that fishing a more active type bait on the hook is going to be a nice edge.
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   Old Thread  #29 31 Dec 2018 at 0.08am Login so you can post / reply  Register so you can join in!
In reply to Post #1
Add a light dusting of Brocacel yeast to your boilies instead. Chuck it onto frozen boilies and give them a shake to coat. This will add so much more to your baits rather than letting decompose in your bucket and you have so much more control. This is what I have done for the last two seasons after looking into the benefits of turning baits and its served me well. As I said before, you have total control rather than have a bait just right to take on a 3 night session and they are ruined by day two. Well that's my theory anyway..... Tight lines.
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   Old Thread  #28 30 Dec 2018 at 8.29pm Login so you can post / reply  Register so you can join in!
In reply to Post #22
ďSugars2Ē

Is that the S2ís you make mate? The lovely maple smelling baits?
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   Old Thread  #27 30 Dec 2018 at 8.19pm Login so you can post / reply  Register so you can join in!
In reply to Post #17
Hi NW,
I know you understand the importance of AAs in attraction, which is why you use protease in your bait mixes.
Given your endorsement of sugars and the results of Kasumyan and Morsi's taste preferences paper which gave sucrose a low palatability rating, in what way do you consider sugars influence chemoreception?
BB.
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   Old Thread  #26 30 Dec 2018 at 8.07pm Login so you can post / reply  Register so you can join in!
In reply to Post #24
Nah I just chuck sweetcorn from the tin straight in mate. Frozen sweetcorn I give that treatment to, but it works so much better with maize. Maize ferments lush, better than sweetcorn does. Sweetcorn from a tin has been played with by humans already, and will have salt and sugar added. Dry maize, is the artists/anglers blank canvas
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   Old Thread  #25 30 Dec 2018 at 8.02pm Login so you can post / reply  Register so you can join in!
In reply to Post #23
DP.
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   Old Thread  #24 30 Dec 2018 at 8.02pm Login so you can post / reply  Register so you can join in!
In reply to Post #23
Would you do that with Sweetcorn straight out the tin too?
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   Old Thread  #23 30 Dec 2018 at 8.00pm Login so you can post / reply  Register so you can join in!
In reply to Post #16
Here's an even better way of explaining to you what I meant Hookpull, but using maize as the example. When I cook up a bit of maize, I drain it, chuck it in a bucket with a load of sugar. I do this to make it ferment. I will put it on the radiator in the winter. After two days of letting some goodness form, I will salt it. Because I want a bit of salt in that maize to, but only after it has fermented. Then it's ready to use. And is like, the best maize in the world

If I put the salt in any earlier, it will not be the best maize in the world. It will be maize, that could have been made much better.
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   Old Thread  #22 30 Dec 2018 at 7.43pm Login so you can post / reply  Register so you can join in!
In reply to Post #21
Thanks mate, I'll have a gander. I'm very happy with the sugars that I can create though at the moment. They work. Probably the best thing I've done in fishing so far, is not caught any fish, but is named Sugars2. Something else for short.

Yesterday I was sent a photograph of a premium 50+ UK common, today I was sent an off the radar video of an unknown 40, and two unknown 30+ scaly's. Off the scale scaly's, caught in thirty minutes. The catch of a lifetime for the man doing the do. It's winter now, till the water warms right up in six months time, sugars are king.

I have a good friend, whom is part owner of Mainline Baits. Food industry connections at the very highest levels, like space age stuff, means that man knows far more than me, or most others, about the sort of things which you are talking about there mate. I'm not that clever really myself
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   Old Thread  #21 30 Dec 2018 at 5.59pm Login so you can post / reply  Register so you can join in!
In reply to Post #18
I'm sure you've tried it Mark, but if you're into the 'sugars creating sugars' thing, have a muck about with some alpha amylase... Think God's Black Juice...
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   Old Thread  #20 30 Dec 2018 at 5.39pm Login so you can post / reply  Register so you can join in!
In reply to Post #18
Sweet whey has a lot more than 5% sugar..... Its virtually all lactose. The sugar content of the various Wheys varies from the 90% protein WPC down to the lowest stuff (about 14% protein). The sugar comes from the non-protein part of the Whey. The high lactose stuff is what's in Lamlac and vitamealo.
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   Old Thread  #19 30 Dec 2018 at 5.09pm Login so you can post / reply  Register so you can join in!
In reply to Post #16
But the hint of salt mate, will inhibit the good things that other stuff can produce. You're killing it with that stance. Use salt as salt in warm water, fish meal products. When the water is not at Summer temp, don't.

Not you per se, but I find many many home bait makers, when they hit on something good, that is it. Fish meal is good mate, but it's not the be all and end all. There's no such thing as a twelve month mix, not a truly exceptional one anyway. You want your highly fishy salty stuff for warm water in the summer. Don't mix it with your other stuff at any other time though. when the water cools. Salt still works, but sugars then work far, far better. The salt will stop fermentation, it will actually hinder what lovely ness, that you could have created.

They work completely different, and one does not work in the same way when the other is present is what i'm trying to explain.
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   Old Thread  #18 30 Dec 2018 at 5.01pm Login so you can post / reply  Register so you can join in!
In reply to Post #17
Whey, is a fermented protein. Sweet whey, is just the byproduct, of the process of making rennet types of hard cheeses, or casein. It's named sweet whey for a reason mate. It's the lovely stuff that comes when they make Cheddar.

Per 100g, it has 5g of sugar. Sugars, create sugars, if promoted in the right way.

It's not just carp anglers that look at fermenting things. Health gurus have been doing it for years to aid digestion (we need that to in our thing). And chefs/cooks have been doing it forever, to enhance the sensation of taste in certain things.
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   Old Thread  #17 30 Dec 2018 at 4.08pm Login so you can post / reply  Register so you can join in!
In reply to Post #15
Agree with sugars being superior in cold water. Not so keen on the concept that certain proteins can create sugars (carbs) tho..... Care to evidence, Mark?
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   Old Thread  #16 30 Dec 2018 at 3.41pm Login so you can post / reply  Register so you can join in!
In reply to Post #15
Very interesting post
I don't use fishmeal but do add a salty liquid but obviously not enough for me to notice. I use the ingredients that u say make natural sugars.
Sweet with a hint of salt, sounds good to me, vary the oil content and it's a 12 month mix.
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   Old Thread  #15 30 Dec 2018 at 2.09pm Login so you can post / reply  Register so you can join in!
In reply to Post #13
Yes it does depend entirely on ingredients. If you have a heavy fishmeal, you are not getting many sugars rising to the surface. It's all salt. Give it a lick.

Base mixes that contain things, which tend to ferment, and create sugars, like seed, nut, certain proteins, that kind of thing... These will create natural sugars, magic ones.

Now salt is great at certain times, I love it. But it also inhibits fermentation. Not good if that is actively what you are looking to achieve. If you want to ferment boilies... No/low fishmeal content, or any salty products

Sugars are king in cold water. Why do you think, seed, nut, and those type of baits have always been the winter winners? Tutti's never had no fishmeal or salt in, worked rather well in cold water though didn't they... Especially when 'sweated' up.
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   Old Thread  #14 30 Dec 2018 at 2.05pm Login so you can post / reply  Register so you can join in!
In reply to Post #12
They are very attractive mate.

Baits that are filled up with water first, are also more attractive in cold water. Different strokes, but same thing kind of. Complicated things, simple things. Both are effective.

It's all about what they can actually sense, what turns them on in an underwater scenario.
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   Old Thread  #13 30 Dec 2018 at 10.41am Login so you can post / reply  Register so you can join in!
In reply to Post #12
I wouldnt say it tastes salty, I suppose it depends on the ingredients of the boilie?
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   Old Thread  #12 30 Dec 2018 at 8.25am Login so you can post / reply  Register so you can join in!
In reply to Post #10
The correct term is efflorescence.


I love using baits in this white sticky stage, they are usually very attractive.

I would think that this is slightly different to washed out baits, or even baits that have been in the lake for 3 or so days, but the salts and sugars must still wash out.



A dictionary definition of the name
In chemistry, efflorescence is the migration of a salt to the surface of a porous material, where it forms a coating. The essential process involves the dissolving of an internally held salt in water, or occasionally in another solvent.
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   Old Thread  #11 29 Dec 2018 at 11.50pm Login so you can post / reply  Register so you can join in!
In reply to Post #9
I think thatís right. I had an excellent 7 day session using MCF pink mix in the summer.
The bait worked better as the pink turned white, but stopped working when the white crust turned green
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   Old Thread  #10 28 Dec 2018 at 2.08pm Login so you can post / reply  Register so you can join in!
In reply to Post #9
Or salt, both rise in a sweaty bait. I'm not surprised in the slightest that the baits worked better for some of you, of course they would. Salts and sugars, are the real gold dust, with tiny little diamond sprinkles mixed in for carp bait formulation. If you have an 'active' bait, it's always going to out fish a bait, which is not. Simples. What you need, is the right things in there to even make your bait go 'active' in the first place.

'Sugars' (not sugar, different thing) promote certain things, which fish can actually home in on, as soon as the bait hits the water.

Loads of things you can do to make your bait better, as soon as it hits the water, one of them I've actually mentioned on here before. Example. I done 'rather' well on Walthamstows 2/3 a long time ago now, one winter as a newbe. That's a day only day ticket water, so time is very limited. I used a lot of boilies as free bait, even when the temps were sub zero... But I always added an amount of water to the free baits the night before, to make them fully swollen for the next morning. The moment the baits go into the water, carp can sense them. Dry/hard freezer bait? Maybe two to fours hours or more in the winter, before they can even sense it. Exactly the same bait, but a bit of water unlocks it ready for cold water. They can eat it, and pooh it out quickly to, even in cold water as it's soft. I'd caught six or seven good fish in four hours some days, when others anglers bait was just starting to work.

The carp need to be able to sense your bait quickly. Certain things, will pull them from a long long way away.
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   Old Thread  #9 28 Dec 2018 at 8.55am Login so you can post / reply  Register so you can join in!
I was lead to believe that the white stuff was actually the sugar rising to the surface.
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   Old Thread  #8 27 Dec 2018 at 11.17pm Login so you can post / reply  Register so you can join in!
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Some thirty years ago, i made up some rather primitive bait, compared to present standards Ė ground trout pellets and wheat gluten, nothing else besides eggs. I was on vacation and there was no freezer. After a week or so, the baits went hard and mold appeared. I lacked other bait, so went on using them. I caught like mad, the bait outfished other boilies used on the water by far. Obviously the mold or whatever you want to call it enhanced the bait.
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   Old Thread  #7 27 Dec 2018 at 7.44pm Login so you can post / reply  Register so you can join in!
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Grange and active 8 were great when just going spotty. Imo it's mostly wild yeasts that have made a home on your baits. These yeasts secrete enzymes in order to break down the substrate into a usable food for the yeasts enabling them to multiply and therefore secrete more enzymes. Imo it's at the just going white stage that the enzymes are at a peak and as has been said when you get a slightly sticky sweet smell/taste as the substrate is being hydrolised into soluble proteins/sugars and fats. As long as it's white your ok, just avoid green.
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   Old Thread  #6 27 Dec 2018 at 8.13am Login so you can post / reply  Register so you can join in!
That white stuff on boilies does not taste like mold, mold tastes not nice like as in moldy, that doesnt taste bad. Lick it and try, I dont think its mold personaly and have used boilies covered in it. If it puts you off for any reason it washes off, dip your boilies in a mess bag in the lake a few times and it will be gone.
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   Old Thread  #5 26 Dec 2018 at 10.52pm Login so you can post / reply  Register so you can join in!
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I think if you have a bait that is turning or breaking down it will be releasing more attraction through sugars turning to alcohols which can only be a good thing. I don't think you have too long to make use of that particular stage though, so need to get your timing right, but should be good if you do.
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   Old Thread  #4 26 Dec 2018 at 11.37am Login so you can post / reply  Register so you can join in!
I remember being on the original grange when it came out in the 90ís, that would turn quickly. I often used them while they were turning and caught on them.
I caught a ton of fish on that bait.
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   Old Thread  #3 26 Dec 2018 at 9.24am Login so you can post / reply  Register so you can join in!
Thank you Sir. How very kind
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   Old Thread  #2 26 Dec 2018 at 9.01am Login so you can post / reply  Register so you can join in!
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Sorry don't know but bumped to the top for you
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   Old Thread  #1 5 Dec 2018 at 5.28pm Login so you can post / reply  Register so you can join in!
I am interested to hear peoples veiws on fermenting boilies. In the past I have had baits start to turn after a few days showing signs of that white crust and sickly smell. Using such baits produced some good results. I have recently started to make my own baits again and settled on a mix which turns nicely. I would be interested to hear the thoughts of others on this