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   Using Glass Spheres for pop ups - CAUTION
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   Old Thread  #1000  24 Oct 2011 at 8.54pm Login so you can post / reply  Register so you can join in!
This should be a sticky, if you don't mind me saying so...

In recent years, the use of glass bubbles or spheres in a basemix, to create a pop up, has become very popular...however there seems to be little or no guidance around regarding their use, which is a scandal.

If inhaled, these things can be deadly, just as other things such as asbestos lodge in the lungs, so can these. Their main use is in the construction industry , where they are injected into iron girders and the like, to reduce weight. When used in the industry, positive pressure facial masks MUST be worn.

I know that even some bait companies treat these things as fairly harmless, its only a matter of time before an employee is made serously ill using them.

The bottom line, if you MUST use them to make a pop up mix at home, be VERY careful....try and work in a well ventilated place, wear the best quaity facemask you can afford, and try and "calm" the spheres by spraying them with an atomiser or by lightly smearing the inside of the bag with a little vegetable oil

Some people seem to know all about this - others seem blissfully ignorant - DON'T BE its your health

Matt
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   Old Thread  #1000  25 Oct 2011 at 3.34pm Login so you can post / reply  Register so you can join in!
In reply to Post #7
A couple of points on this ;

1/ Do you realise how small these are ? Less than 10 thousandths millimeter . Even if a carp swallows a pop-up and digests all the base mix the spheres will pass straight through as they are inert and too small to be ground up b the carps teeth.

2/The risks to humans using the spheres in bait manufacture are small , and neglidgable if you follow the manufacturers recommended safety precautions . Here is an extract from the 3M Scotchlite Glassbubbles safety data sheet which are the most commonly used type ;

Inhalation:
Upper Respiratory Tract Irritation: Signs/symptoms may include cough, sneezing, nasal discharge, headache, hoarseness, and nose
and throat pain.
Prolonged or repeated exposure may cause:
Lung Effects: Signs/symptoms may include difficulty breathing, cough, wheezing, weakness, increased heart rate, bluish
colored skin (cyanosis), sputum production and changes in lung function tests.
Ingestion:
Gastrointestinal Irritation: Signs/symptoms may include abdominal pain, nausea, diarrhea and vomiting.

8.2 PERSONAL PROTECTIVE EQUIPMENT (PPE)
8.2.1 Eye/Face Protection
Avoid eye contact.
The following eye protection(s) are recommended: Safety Glasses with side shields.
3M MATERIAL SAFETY DATA SHEET SCOTCHLITE BRAND GLASS BUBBLES, TYPES B, K, L, and S 11/27/2002
Page 4 of 8
8.2.2 Skin Protection
Select and use gloves and/or protective clothing to prevent skin contact based on the results of an exposure assessment. Consult with
your glove and/or protective clothing manufacturer for selection of appropriate compatible materials.
Gloves made from the following material(s) are recommended: Neoprene, Nitrile Rubber.
8.2.3 Respiratory Protection
Select one of the following NIOSH approved respirators based on airborne concentration of contaminants and in accordance with
OSHA regulations: Half facepiece or fullface air-purifying respirator with P95 particulate filters. Consult the current 3M Respiratory
Selection Guide for additional information or call 1-800-243-4630 for 3M technical assistance.
8.2.4 Prevention of Swallowing
Do not eat, drink or smoke when using this product. Wash exposed areas thoroughly with soap and water.

This all sounds very dangerous , but if you looked at a similar data sheet for talc it would scare you sh1tless .
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   Old Thread  #52 27 Oct 2018 at 8.48pm Login so you can post / reply  Register so you can join in!
Enjoy mouth damaging carp, trashing the bushes with empty stella cans and filling the lake with dodgy shelf life you sad, boring little chav noddies!

I think that sums you up pretty well!
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   Old Thread  #51 27 Oct 2018 at 8.45pm Login so you can post / reply  Register so you can join in!
In reply to Post #50
Have you ever seen these glass spheres? They are much smoother than a grain of sand! They do not need banning and are 100% safe for the fish
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   Old Thread  #50 26 Oct 2018 at 11.47pm Login so you can post / reply  Register so you can join in!
I wouldn't go near any bait that had crushed glass in it as it is not digestible

Simple as that I think the people that use it are just cutting corners, there is zero need for it, use a regular pop up mix and stop worrying..

Spheres will be banned soon, use something with longevity and be a bit more conscientious about your approach
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   Old Thread  #47 18 Nov 2016 at 5.42pm Login so you can post / reply  Register so you can join in!
In reply to Post #46
You can attempt to be as patronising as you like but it doesn't hide the fact that you're a simpleton. There we go, no subtleties there, just straight to the point
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   Old Thread  #46 18 Nov 2016 at 5.37pm Login so you can post / reply  Register so you can join in!
In reply to Post #45
I didn't say cork balls were bad or evil.. I said plastic and spheres were.. the clues are in an understanding of the subtleties of well written English literature matey me lad.. and everyone is entitled to voice opinions
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   Old Thread  #45 18 Nov 2016 at 10.51am Login so you can post / reply  Register so you can join in!
In reply to Post #44
Not his first ridiculous post, makes me wonder if he's a familiar user who's returned following a ban.

Those evil corkballs eh? Why can't they be made out of a natural material?!
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   Old Thread  #44 18 Nov 2016 at 10.25am Login so you can post / reply  Register so you can join in!
In reply to Post #43
What a daft reaction IMHO.

These glass spheres are almost certainly safer to eat (for us and fish!) than sand which is essentially the same material in a different mechanical form i.e. larger grain size and with sharp edges. Carp will naturally consume sand when feeding in many lakes. Also how many popup to carp actually swallow? Most will never swallow one in their life as they are caught when trying to eat it!

>or buy some ordinary pop up mix and roll them up,
Many of which contain some microspheres

If you really are worried that these microspheres will harm carp (which they won't) then may I also suggest you stop casting out a very sharp metal hook which is proven to cause a small hole in there mouth

Personally I think this topic has too many rumors in it and little fact. The main 'risk' in using microspheres is inhaling them during mixing of the dry powders when making popups. You must wear a suitable facemask if working with the raw material.

Can the topic be cleaned up to just say that and then locked?
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   Old Thread  #43 18 Nov 2016 at 9.43am Login so you can post / reply  Register so you can join in!
Just don't buy and avoid spheres
I found out my Crafty Catcher pop ups contained spheres so I binned the pot
I wouldn't cast glass, plastic or anything artificial anywhere near precious carp personally
If you want to make pop ups, just microwave some sinking boilies carefully or buy some ordinary pop up mix and roll them up, why faff about with stupid spheres, cork balls etc??
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   Old Thread  #42 15 Feb 2016 at 8.18am Login so you can post / reply  Register so you can join in!
In reply to Post #41
Have you read all of this topic? Some microspheres are SAFE for human consumption and used in food.....until you have seen/used them and realised how tiny they actually can be then I am not sure how you can call for an EU ban

Carp eat sand naturally if its in the lake bed.....rough sand or tiny small perfectly smooth glass spheres, I know which I would rather eat if I had too (and as a kid I am sure we have all eaten the other one on the beach many times and look, I we are still alive )

Personally I think this topic being locked at the top of the forum is a waste of space and a bit of scaremongering
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   Old Thread  #41 14 Feb 2016 at 10.39am Login so you can post / reply  Register so you can join in!
In reply to Post #35
There have already been big moves by the EU for labelling of all animal food ingredients and best before dating. I would imagine putting glass in bait will be banned very quickly and people will start being put out of business by heavy fines sooner than you know it (and good riddance)
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   Old Thread  #40 14 Feb 2016 at 10.37am Login so you can post / reply  Register so you can join in!
Sounds like an absolutely dreadful idea and typical of an industry that has a very shady and gimicky side to it

What the hell is wrong with pop up mix, cork dust, cork balls and microwaved's??

Polyballs are horrible things too but not in the same league as glass

Stop covering your pop ups in glug if you want them to stay really bouyant, and keep them lovely and dry by putting a load of cheap table salt in the tub to soak up all the moisture, simples

Anyway I don't know why more people don't just stick two pop ups on if they want a really bouyant bait. Carp are not afraid of big double baits
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   Old Thread  #39 3 Jan 2014 at 1.46am Login so you can post / reply  Register so you can join in!
In reply to Post #38
It's fine. Never harmed a fish yet. We ingest more by mixing it than a carp does picking up a hook bait. Even if they'd swallowed it.
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   Old Thread  #38 3 May 2013 at 9.51pm Login so you can post / reply  Register so you can join in!
In reply to Post #1000
I think this is a well made point and, whilst some people are not convinced, I (and my employees) have a great deal of experience of this product from years of use.
Once correctly mixed and contained/supended in a mix it is no more dangerous than many other fine powders that are used in bait making, but in the raw form it is extremely light and easily becomes airborne. This means that it is alomst impossible for it to be mixed with other powders without the serious risk of inhalation by the operatives mixing it. Once inhaled, it may be 'coughed up' gradually but there is a significant risk of respiratory damage -particularly if used over a prolonged period without taking the neccessary precautions.
When we used to use this product at CCM, we mixed it in a controlled, ventilated environment and those doing so also used full face masks with battery-powered respirators. After several 'batches' we realised that residue was present on the inside of the masks and was therefore getting past the barrier the mask was supposed to create.
As soon as this was realised, we stopped mixing the product at CCM immediately and employed industrial powder mixers to contract mix batches for us. This is now what we do with every mix and ensures saftey, even distribution of the key ingredients and 100% consistency.
Forget the fact you think you may save a few pounds by buying in glass bubbles to mix with your own ingredients to make your own pop up mix; it is just not worth the long term, irreversible damage you will potentially do to your health.

In terms of it's safety for fish; remember that:
1: As a pop up ingredient it should never be swallowed/ingested by fish. (It must never be used as a 'boilie' ingredient that will be eaten).
2: Fish eat many natural items that contain grit, sand etc in their normal diet- these are simply passed by the fish. In the worst case scenario that the pop up would become detached from the rig and was eaten, the fish would manage to digest it and pass the unwanted material within the mix. (and this would surely be an isolated case which would hence be unlikely to cause any damage to the fish).

I hope this is of interest and strongly advise people not to mix their own glass bubbles!
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   Old Thread  #37 26 Jul 2012 at 8.12pm Login so you can post / reply  Register so you can join in!
In reply to Post #1000
Sorry if this is a dumb question i know nothing about bait making but Is this what is used to make air ball pop ups..?
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   Old Thread  #36 6 May 2012 at 9.42am Login so you can post / reply  Register so you can join in!
Jeez!!! What the hell is wrong with cork?!!
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   Old Thread  #35 2 Mar 2012 at 4.52pm Login so you can post / reply  Register so you can join in!
Someone should step in and say there sould be a clear warning on the packaging. E.G. base mixes should come with a warning printed on them CLEARLY, not just in the small text which not even the saddest of people read.
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   Old Thread  #34 22 Dec 2011 at 8.43am Login so you can post / reply  Register so you can join in!
does this still apply to cork ball pop ups
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   Old Thread  #33 10 Dec 2011 at 10.03pm Login so you can post / reply  Register so you can join in!
In reply to Post #32
Wish carp bit as easy as you matey ha ha ha ha
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   Old Thread  #32 10 Dec 2011 at 6.39pm Login so you can post / reply  Register so you can join in!
In reply to Post #30
you should try it.
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   Old Thread  #31 10 Dec 2011 at 6.38pm Login so you can post / reply  Register so you can join in!
In reply to Post #30
why waste my time typing **** like you.?
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   Old Thread  #30 10 Dec 2011 at 6.12pm Login so you can post / reply  Register so you can join in!
In reply to Post #13
Amazing what you can cut and paste these days!!!
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   Old Thread  #29 15 Nov 2011 at 8.05pm Login so you can post / reply  Register so you can join in!
In reply to Post #28
Well put Peter.

Keith, small is not a problem until they become so small that they get into different parts of the body that other particles donít. These are not that small to be considered in that class.

All dusts should be considered problematic. Even hardwood dusts from normal machining can be carcinogenic.
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   Old Thread  #28 12 Nov 2011 at 12.00pm Login so you can post / reply  Register so you can join in!
Been away for a while so only just picked up on this

When mixing any base mix in reasonable quantities wear a face mask. Some 'traditional' milk powders are also very fine and can cause problems in the lungs with long term exposure. I know of at least one bait maker that gave up for health reasons which are suspected to have been caused by long term eposure to milk powders.

If you are making the odd batch of pop-ups a few times a month you have nothing to worry about. If you make 10Kg mixes, 5 days a week, 47 weeks a year then you should take more care.

Microspheres are used in all sorts of different industries including in food for human consumption . They are also used in various hobbies including model making and other composite using hobbies like kit cars, boats etc and have been for many years. They can be made from different materials (I have some plastic ones sent as a sample....when heated they expand to 10 times the original volume, stick them in a boilie and the results is errrr messy to say the least!) and filled with different gas or even no gas.

MSDS information is often alarming as it has to talk about 'worst case' and 'high volume' exposure. I am not saying ignore the danger but short of snorting the stuff daily it will do none of us hobbie bait makers any harm IMHO

Does this really need to be a sticky? If it was a genuine risk then OK but its not.
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   Old Thread  #27 4 Nov 2011 at 0.53am Login so you can post / reply  Register so you can join in!
In reply to Post #2
Shouldn't pop up mixes from all the bait companies have a warning labels on them?

Same beads we are being warned about here!
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   Old Thread  #26 31 Oct 2011 at 9.55pm Login so you can post / reply  Register so you can join in!
In reply to Post #25
I was getting at that its not difficult to add pop up mix or cork dusk to make pop ups
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   Old Thread  #25 31 Oct 2011 at 9.40pm Login so you can post / reply  Register so you can join in!
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   Old Thread  #24 30 Oct 2011 at 9.10pm Login so you can post / reply  Register so you can join in!
In reply to Post #23
Whats wrong with cork dusk, i mean its not brain surgery
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   Old Thread  #23 30 Oct 2011 at 8.51pm Login so you can post / reply  Register so you can join in!
MDF another material made up almost the same as Asbestos.

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   Old Thread  #22 26 Oct 2011 at 8.33am Login so you can post / reply  Register so you can join in!
In reply to Post #18
The comparisons with asbestos are however a joke
i only compared silica dust particles with asbestos fibres as these are the things the lungs cannot do anything with except encapsulate
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   Old Thread  #21 25 Oct 2011 at 11.42pm Login so you can post / reply  Register so you can join in!
In reply to Post #20
Based on on posts so far, this thread merits a sticky .Always better safe than sorry .
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   Old Thread  #20 25 Oct 2011 at 10.30pm Login so you can post / reply  Register so you can join in!
In reply to Post #19
Agree, safety first!!!!

Don't want to get too technical. Use a good dust mask as you really should with any dust, but don't think of them as asbestos.
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   Old Thread  #19 25 Oct 2011 at 10.24pm Login so you can post / reply  Register so you can join in!
In reply to Post #18
I think the point being mate, is the majority of guys who make there own bait dont have a PHD in chemistry

I appreciate that in some fields the "Micros" and "Nanos" arent considered to be large particals but to emphasise the point to your average angler they should be treated as so.
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   Old Thread  #18 25 Oct 2011 at 10.20pm Login so you can post / reply  Register so you can join in!
The data sheet talks about them being less than 200 microns. This is not small - in fact in my industry this is very large.

I'm sure you have heard about nano-technology and nano-particles. The EU is currently defining what constitutes a nano-particle, itís likely to be 50-100nm. Once this size is reached, the particles take on additional toxicological risk vs larger particles due to their small size.

200microns is 2000 times the size of a 100nm particle.

You are putting much smaller particles on your skin if using zinc sunblocks!

Donít get me wrong, you should certainly be using a mask when using them as you should really with any dust and the tips on not creating dusts are very valid. A build up in your lungs is one thing, potentially one asbestos particle can cause cancer!

The comparisons with asbestos are however inappropriate (the main issue with asbestos is their thin needle shape, these are "large" balls) and have no technical merit.
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   Old Thread  #17 25 Oct 2011 at 10.16pm Login so you can post / reply  Register so you can join in!
In reply to Post #1000
1/ Do you realise how small these are ? Less than 10 thousandths millimeter .
right lads a couple of things to take note of
1-)
10 microns as sized above is the is the sort of size that becomes "respirable dust" meaning that you inhale all dust but at that size the dust gets past all the mucus and swirling in your airways and gets into the lungs.
when you breathe out you do not have the volume or speed of airflow to exhale the dust and it just floats about until it settles on the lung walls.
2-)
the lungs can deal with all but 2 containments by the bodies defence system (macrophages) which is basically a scavenge organism which deals with containments ( stop smoking and the lungs clean themselves within 5 - 10 years etc)

the body cannot deal with ASBESTOS FIBRES AND SILICA DUST
Glass dust ó or silica dust, to be more specific (quick and dirty link sorry), this is what is being used at present with very little control.

Just remember how wonderful Asbestos was all those years ago, just like DDT etc

If you are going to use spheres get some decent respirator protection and don't forget your family in the surrounding area as a large proportion of death related to Asbestos where the families of the workers

Just take care of yourself and loved ones
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   Old Thread  #16 25 Oct 2011 at 10.09pm Login so you can post / reply  Register so you can join in!
This is very interesting , does anyone know if the Solar Polaris mix has this in as i have been using this myself , i was lead to believe it contained ground up cork


Depending on the reply i will post something else
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   Old Thread  #15 25 Oct 2011 at 8.22pm Login so you can post / reply  Register so you can join in!
Ive worked with this stuff for years in resin systems etc and its really not nice. Deffo need a good mask and good ventilation.
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   Old Thread  #14 25 Oct 2011 at 7.43pm Login so you can post / reply  Register so you can join in!
In reply to Post #13
Thought you knew all that Brian.

yes pete. i did.

but i didn't know whether glass bubbles were solid or hollow.

now i do know that, & i know where the bubbles in glass come from.

they put them in there!!
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   Old Thread  #13 25 Oct 2011 at 7.22pm Login so you can post / reply  Register so you can join in!
In reply to Post #10
Volume of a sphere
Circumscribed cylinder to a sphere.

In 3 dimensions, the volume inside a sphere (that is, the volume of a ball) is given by the formula

\!V = \frac{4}{3}\pi r^3

where r is the radius of the sphere and π is the constant pi. This formula was first derived by Archimedes, who showed that the volume of a sphere is 2/3 that of a circumscribed cylinder. (This assertion follows from Cavalieri's principle.) In modern mathematics, this formula can be derived using integral calculus, e.g. disk integration to sum the volumes of an infinite number of circular disks of infinitesimal thickness stacked centered side by side along the x axis from x = 0 where the disk has radius r (i.e. y = r) to x = r where the disk has radius 0 (i.e. y = 0).

At any given x, the incremental volume (δV) is given by the product of the cross-sectional area of the disk at x and its thickness (δx):

\!\delta V \approx \pi y^2 \cdot \delta x.

The total volume is the summation of all incremental volumes:

\!V \approx \sum \pi y^2 \cdot \delta x.

In the limit as δx approaches zero[1] this becomes:

\!V = \int_{-r}^{r} \pi y^2 dx.

At any given x, a right-angled triangle connects x, y and r to the origin, hence it follows from Pythagorean theorem that:

\!r^2 = x^2 + y^2.

Thus, substituting y with a function of x gives:

\!V = \int_{-r}^{r} \pi (r^2 - x^2)dx.

This can now be evaluated:

\!V = \pi \left[r^2x - \frac{x^3}{3} \right]_{-r}^{r} = \pi \left(r^3 - \frac{r^3}{3} \right) - \pi \left(-r^3 + \frac{r^3}{3} \right) = \frac{4}{3}\pi r^3.

Therefore the volume of a sphere is:

\!V = \frac{4}{3}\pi r^3.

Alternatively this formula is found using spherical coordinates, with volume element

\mathrm{d}V=r^2\sin\theta\,\mathrm{d}r\,\mathrm{d}\theta\,\mathrm{d}\varphi

In higher dimensions, the sphere (or hypersphere) is usually called an n-ball. General recursive formulas exist for deriving the volume of an n-ball.

For most practical uses, the volume of a sphere can be approximated as 52.4% of the volume of an inscribing cube, since \pi/6 \approx 0.5236. For example, since a cube with edge length 1 m has a volume of 1 m3
, a sphere with diameter 1 m has a volume of about 0.524 m3
.

Thought you knew all that Brian.
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   Old Thread  #12 25 Oct 2011 at 6.46pm Login so you can post / reply  Register so you can join in!
In reply to Post #11
Based on the evidence thus far, i have put the 2 main posts at the top of the thread.If this all turns out to be factual it can be made a sticky .
Can we please have our resident bait makers input on this please .
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   Old Thread  #11 25 Oct 2011 at 6.32pm Login so you can post / reply  Register so you can join in!
In reply to Post #10
Hollow as in 'glass bubbles'.

what do they look like...........in the bag.......a very fine light powder, out of the bag........a very fine powder that slowly drops to ground level and floats around if disturbed. A bit like powder snow or wading around in polystyrene balls.

Buoyancy........think of an airball pop-up as being 20% micro encapsulated air
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   Old Thread  #10 25 Oct 2011 at 5.58pm Login so you can post / reply  Register so you can join in!
are these spheres solid glass? or hollow??

how do they make bait so buoyant??

i've never used, nor am i likely to seeing as i hate bait making! these nor have any idea what they look like.
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   Old Thread  #9 25 Oct 2011 at 5.53pm Login so you can post / reply  Register so you can join in!
In reply to Post #8
Agreed Keith IF, and thats a very big IF, you do follow the precautions, which is my point exactly.

Matt
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   Old Thread  #7 25 Oct 2011 at 11.53am Login so you can post / reply  Register so you can join in!
In reply to Post #6
you might say you would never do it to bait....bet a lot of people think that, and don't realise that half the pop ups they've got are glass!!!

The effect on the fish is secondary in my opinion, how many pop ups get ingested by carp - not many!

Spread the word to anyone you know that's even thinking about making their own.
cheers
Matt
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   Old Thread  #6 25 Oct 2011 at 8.19am Login so you can post / reply  Register so you can join in!
In reply to Post #5
are glass spheres any good for fish ?

I cant say id ever do this to bait
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   Old Thread  #5 25 Oct 2011 at 0.49am Login so you can post / reply  Register so you can join in!
In reply to Post #4
Learn something everyday.....didnt know that ...good info..
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   Old Thread  #4 24 Oct 2011 at 10.56pm Login so you can post / reply  Register so you can join in!
In reply to Post #3
silverfish great link which backs up what i am saying. I am reading more and more "how do i make pop ups" replied with "just add 20% glass spheres..."

Be warned. And I ask the Mods again, this really should be a sticky - plenty of stickies about fish safety, this one is even more important, its anglers' safety.

For those that dont read silverfish's link,its the health and safety data sheet from the manufacturer 3M and it recomends proper goggles and PROPER facemask, not just a thin dust mask like you would wear decorating or something.

Be safe guys!
Matt
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   Old Thread  #3 24 Oct 2011 at 9.59pm Login so you can post / reply  Register so you can join in!
In reply to Post #1
http://multimedia.3m.com/mws/mediawebserver?mwsId=SSSSSuUn_zu8l00xMx_1M8tUPv70k17zHvu9lxtD7SSSSSS--
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   Old Thread  #2 24 Oct 2011 at 9.51pm Login so you can post / reply  Register so you can join in!
In reply to Post #1
good warning post
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