In reply to Post #1425
Didn't I mention the kickstart programme in my post? Not by name but I thought everyone knew about it was it was national news a few days ago.
It pains me that you base you entire opinion from just your place of work and what they do. Maybe a reality check that not every business operates as yours does. Way way back in this thread I posted a link to a study carried out in 2015 where researchers sent out the exact same CVs with ONLY the names changed to represent different ethnicities. Funnily enough BAME names got less call backs than white British, even though they were qualified and educated exactly the same on the made up CV. That was a proper study, that was peer reviewed and accepted. It far supersedes you're experience of your one employer and their recruitment policy. The study shows clearly that BAME people were not offered the same opportunity as someone of equal ability that was white British.
Study
there is also this one About a pay gap, which I am always sceptical of but it seems as if they accounted for a number of things and did come out with the conclusion that there is one with white British of the same qualification and education starting on a higher salary. But like I said I am sceptical of pay gap data but it makes interesting reading.
Didn't I mention the kickstart programme in my post? Not by name but I thought everyone knew about it was it was national news a few days ago.
It pains me that you base you entire opinion from just your place of work and what they do. Maybe a reality check that not every business operates as yours does. Way way back in this thread I posted a link to a study carried out in 2015 where researchers sent out the exact same CVs with ONLY the names changed to represent different ethnicities. Funnily enough BAME names got less call backs than white British, even though they were qualified and educated exactly the same on the made up CV. That was a proper study, that was peer reviewed and accepted. It far supersedes you're experience of your one employer and their recruitment policy. The study shows clearly that BAME people were not offered the same opportunity as someone of equal ability that was white British.
Study
there is also this one About a pay gap, which I am always sceptical of but it seems as if they accounted for a number of things and did come out with the conclusion that there is one with white British of the same qualification and education starting on a higher salary. But like I said I am sceptical of pay gap data but it makes interesting reading.
In reply to Post #1414
Not sure how that relates to anything tbh. You are quite a drastic person aren't you. Sacking white people to employ black people? That just keeps unemployment at the same level. Maybe sorting out the economy and ensuring businesses thrive so more jobs are available would make more sense as then there would be jobs available for all unemployed people.
Interestingly do those unemployment statistics include people that can't work as being disabled or not?
Not sure how that relates to anything tbh. You are quite a drastic person aren't you. Sacking white people to employ black people? That just keeps unemployment at the same level. Maybe sorting out the economy and ensuring businesses thrive so more jobs are available would make more sense as then there would be jobs available for all unemployed people.
Interestingly do those unemployment statistics include people that can't work as being disabled or not?
In reply to Post #1417
Mal, Slight issue at the minute............
'Well, we have a new African lady who started this week. I hope she was employed because she was the right person for the job'
your words.
I'll ask again -
Q1 - would you have posed that question if it was a white bloke that had got the job?
No?
Q2 - why might that be?
...
Q1. because of the recent BLM drive are businesses just balancing the ethniticy of there workforce so are employing Black candidates who perhaps are not best for given Jobs but feel under pressure to do so for fear of being called out.......
Q2. As above.
Mal, Slight issue at the minute............
'Well, we have a new African lady who started this week. I hope she was employed because she was the right person for the job'
your words.
I'll ask again -
Q1 - would you have posed that question if it was a white bloke that had got the job?
No?
Q2 - why might that be?
...
Q1. because of the recent BLM drive are businesses just balancing the ethniticy of there workforce so are employing Black candidates who perhaps are not best for given Jobs but feel under pressure to do so for fear of being called out.......
Q2. As above.
In reply to Post #1426
The reply was not to one of your comments. It was to Mal
The reply was not to one of your comments. It was to Mal
In reply to Post #1427
You really cannot read between the lines can you. it was hypothetical
Something i would have expected you to agree with thought really, to be fair i am shocked that you did not
You really cannot read between the lines can you. it was hypothetical
Something i would have expected you to agree with thought really, to be fair i am shocked that you did not
In reply to Post #1429
you have no response for the studies I linked that show that your view of everyone gets equal opportunities is actually disproved by professionals??
When the evidence is in front of you, you very quickly don't respond to it, either you didn't read it or you are too proud to admit that you may have it wrong.
As a reply to the other one, from the way your views and opinions come across on here, it is quite believable that you would think that is what the BLM movement want as an outcome. So no, I didn't take it as a hypothetical solution to the issue.
you have no response for the studies I linked that show that your view of everyone gets equal opportunities is actually disproved by professionals??
When the evidence is in front of you, you very quickly don't respond to it, either you didn't read it or you are too proud to admit that you may have it wrong.
As a reply to the other one, from the way your views and opinions come across on here, it is quite believable that you would think that is what the BLM movement want as an outcome. So no, I didn't take it as a hypothetical solution to the issue.
In reply to Post #1431
you have no response for the studies I linked that show that your view of everyone gets equal opportunities is actually disproved by professionals??
Probably because i did not read them, plenty more **** to get through in this thread
Hypothetical solution, do you mean example?
you have no response for the studies I linked that show that your view of everyone gets equal opportunities is actually disproved by professionals??
Probably because i did not read them, plenty more **** to get through in this thread
Hypothetical solution, do you mean example?
In reply to Post #1432
Hypothetical solution, do you mean example?
Hypothetical was the word you used... I assume wrongly to describe your solution to black African unemployment.
No point trying to make it out like I've not made sense when it was a re-use of the wording you initially used to describe something
So you wont read the evidence that disproves your "the issue doesnt exist because I say so" theory and continue to believe your own theory. says a lot about your attitude tbh. This discussion will never progress as you will continue to put your head in sand and say "im right, your wrong, doesnt matter if im proven wrong I am still right" so... I'm out
Hypothetical solution, do you mean example?
Hypothetical was the word you used... I assume wrongly to describe your solution to black African unemployment.
No point trying to make it out like I've not made sense when it was a re-use of the wording you initially used to describe something
So you wont read the evidence that disproves your "the issue doesnt exist because I say so" theory and continue to believe your own theory. says a lot about your attitude tbh. This discussion will never progress as you will continue to put your head in sand and say "im right, your wrong, doesnt matter if im proven wrong I am still right" so... I'm out
In reply to Post #1425
morning scozza
I've never said that there aren't opportunities - just inequalities in those opportunities.
By way of a bit of emotional distance from the subject I'm going to use a footy analogy.
At the start of this season, every team in the Premier League - one could argue - had the chance to become champions. They all start on zero points, they all have to start the game with 11 players on the field, they all play the same number of games and each other home and away. Opportunities for all.
However, some teams are starting with a bigger squad - which means they can cope with unexpected situations like injuries or suspensions. Or a squad with better players - some even having spare better players who would be first choice at other clubs. They have state of the art training facilities for these bigger and better squads.Their 'home' is bigger and better equipped. Some teams know that if it's not going well, they can buy new players in January - and some teams can spend a LOT more on these players. Or they can sack their manager at great expense and bring in a highly paid replacement mid season (hello Jose). Some teams have to borrow players from the better off clubs - but then when they play that parent club that player can't play so the smaller club is disadvantaged and the bigger club is given even more of an advantage. The bigger clubs get to play in more lucrative competitions, widening the gap year on year. Then there are the unquantifiable elements like referees being swayed by the crowd at those big clubs - afraid to go against that mass of public opinion, even subconsciously. Perceptions about certain players being 'divers' or 'dirty' clouding judgement. Those opportunities for all are different now.
Yes there are those smaller clubs who 'work hard and apply themselves'. And on their day they might get a result against one of the bigger teams. But over the course of the season, the inequalities begin to show and the advantages for those bigger clubs take effect. At the end of the season the rewards are based on league position, so there will be clubs (like the Blades) who have worked their backsides off - one could easily argue they have worked harder than the bigger clubs - for ultimately less. And so the gap widens.
Occasionally there will be a team that bucks the trend - brilliant Leicester City. But that's the exception rather than the rule and the status quo is restored pretty quickly because the imbalances and inequalities will always favour the advantaged clubs.
And that's just looking at the Premier League. Further down the spiral it is even tougher. Look at Man City and Wigan over the past few weeks. City can buy their way out of a ban - £9million quid is not so much when you are working in budgets of billions. Wigan are facing points deductions and the resulting financial penalty because they've gone into administration during a pandemic where hundreds of businesses have failed. The inequalities come with further punishment for those who are disadvantaged.
So...
We've got stuck on the job thing - but it IS part of a much bigger picture with some real systematic issues that need addressing. Our society isn't fair - and I do think that we both want it to be. We maybe have differing views on how to get there based on what we see / hear each day.
Education - So much to say there. I agree it is key. And thankyou - I do teach with passion and with pride in my students' work. But that's a system that isn't perfect either. The lockdown has highlighted the huge disparity in opportunity for disadvantaged students even in something so simple as setting work to be done online. That's much easier for some - and practically impossible for others. The gap is widening and that is going to have a knock on effect for years. And that bigger picture comes into play again when you look at wealth disparity and race in the UK... (another can of worms). The government say - get kids back in schools to combat the disparity. Rather than tackle the root causes of it...
Right - I've done my essay now. That report link from Greekskii is worth a read
Hope you have a good day man.
morning scozza
I've never said that there aren't opportunities - just inequalities in those opportunities.
By way of a bit of emotional distance from the subject I'm going to use a footy analogy.
At the start of this season, every team in the Premier League - one could argue - had the chance to become champions. They all start on zero points, they all have to start the game with 11 players on the field, they all play the same number of games and each other home and away. Opportunities for all.
However, some teams are starting with a bigger squad - which means they can cope with unexpected situations like injuries or suspensions. Or a squad with better players - some even having spare better players who would be first choice at other clubs. They have state of the art training facilities for these bigger and better squads.Their 'home' is bigger and better equipped. Some teams know that if it's not going well, they can buy new players in January - and some teams can spend a LOT more on these players. Or they can sack their manager at great expense and bring in a highly paid replacement mid season (hello Jose). Some teams have to borrow players from the better off clubs - but then when they play that parent club that player can't play so the smaller club is disadvantaged and the bigger club is given even more of an advantage. The bigger clubs get to play in more lucrative competitions, widening the gap year on year. Then there are the unquantifiable elements like referees being swayed by the crowd at those big clubs - afraid to go against that mass of public opinion, even subconsciously. Perceptions about certain players being 'divers' or 'dirty' clouding judgement. Those opportunities for all are different now.
Yes there are those smaller clubs who 'work hard and apply themselves'. And on their day they might get a result against one of the bigger teams. But over the course of the season, the inequalities begin to show and the advantages for those bigger clubs take effect. At the end of the season the rewards are based on league position, so there will be clubs (like the Blades) who have worked their backsides off - one could easily argue they have worked harder than the bigger clubs - for ultimately less. And so the gap widens.
Occasionally there will be a team that bucks the trend - brilliant Leicester City. But that's the exception rather than the rule and the status quo is restored pretty quickly because the imbalances and inequalities will always favour the advantaged clubs.
And that's just looking at the Premier League. Further down the spiral it is even tougher. Look at Man City and Wigan over the past few weeks. City can buy their way out of a ban - £9million quid is not so much when you are working in budgets of billions. Wigan are facing points deductions and the resulting financial penalty because they've gone into administration during a pandemic where hundreds of businesses have failed. The inequalities come with further punishment for those who are disadvantaged.
So...
We've got stuck on the job thing - but it IS part of a much bigger picture with some real systematic issues that need addressing. Our society isn't fair - and I do think that we both want it to be. We maybe have differing views on how to get there based on what we see / hear each day.
Education - So much to say there. I agree it is key. And thankyou - I do teach with passion and with pride in my students' work. But that's a system that isn't perfect either. The lockdown has highlighted the huge disparity in opportunity for disadvantaged students even in something so simple as setting work to be done online. That's much easier for some - and practically impossible for others. The gap is widening and that is going to have a knock on effect for years. And that bigger picture comes into play again when you look at wealth disparity and race in the UK... (another can of worms). The government say - get kids back in schools to combat the disparity. Rather than tackle the root causes of it...
Right - I've done my essay now. That report link from Greekskii is worth a read
Hope you have a good day man.
In reply to Post #1434
Agree with a lot of what you say and nicely put
The link i posted earlier to a PDF did not work correctly. But it was an interesting read and does justify quite a bit of what you are saying. I dont dispute it, i dont dispute anything tbh but there are a LOT of factors to address here, its certainly not as clear cut as lot of people seem to think, a lot!
Agree with a lot of what you say and nicely put
The link i posted earlier to a PDF did not work correctly. But it was an interesting read and does justify quite a bit of what you are saying. I dont dispute it, i dont dispute anything tbh but there are a LOT of factors to address here, its certainly not as clear cut as lot of people seem to think, a lot!
In reply to Post #1435
when in doubt, a football analogy is always useful
I'd be interested in getting that pdf - the link too me to the Kickstart website which I assume isn't what you meant.
when in doubt, a football analogy is always useful
I'd be interested in getting that pdf - the link too me to the Kickstart website which I assume isn't what you meant.
In reply to Post #1436
But in your analogy the Wallets are equivalent to tax avoiding CEO's who get paid an obscene amount. Yes the vast majority of them will be white but your analogy works better when comparing class and wealth. Even Joe Average who is often labelled white privileged can't compete with that.
But in your analogy the Wallets are equivalent to tax avoiding CEO's who get paid an obscene amount. Yes the vast majority of them will be white but your analogy works better when comparing class and wealth. Even Joe Average who is often labelled white privileged can't compete with that.
In reply to Post #1437
it does work for class and wealth - because both of those things are part of the bigger picture that is all linked. it could be applied to gender too i guess. Maybe think of City as being an upper middle class family in Alderley Edge with 2 Range Rovers, 3 dogs, a cleaner, ipads for all, disposable income... (I'm generalising but to make a simple point).
it's about inequalities that can make even a supposed level playing field unbalanced.
i can see how talking about it in football terms might be tricky for a gooner to grasp though...
Peace and love man
it does work for class and wealth - because both of those things are part of the bigger picture that is all linked. it could be applied to gender too i guess. Maybe think of City as being an upper middle class family in Alderley Edge with 2 Range Rovers, 3 dogs, a cleaner, ipads for all, disposable income... (I'm generalising but to make a simple point).
it's about inequalities that can make even a supposed level playing field unbalanced.
i can see how talking about it in football terms might be tricky for a gooner to grasp though...
Peace and love man
In reply to Post #1438
I'm not a fan of analogies so I was on a little wind up
We need a wind up smiley
I'm not a fan of analogies so I was on a little wind up
We need a wind up smiley
In reply to Post #1439
we also need a 'you're a d*ck' smiley...
we also need a 'you're a d*ck' smiley...