In reply to Post #285
You ask a question in post 281 and I answer it in 284
I would say your response to me is more likely the reason he has gone.
I won't retaliate though.
You ask a question in post 281 and I answer it in 284
I would say your response to me is more likely the reason he has gone.
I won't retaliate though.
In reply to Post #286
Ok as is all too common with you it's the tedious route.
Where in post 281 did I say it was the main reason?
Ok as is all too common with you it's the tedious route.
Where in post 281 did I say it was the main reason?
In reply to Post #284
are we all forgetting academies exist, and a lot of them, privatised state education that doesnt have to pay state teacher salaries so a government sanctioned pay rise makes no difference, and also can employ people to teach children that arent actually qualified teachers. They have the same freedoms as independent schools.
are we all forgetting academies exist, and a lot of them, privatised state education that doesnt have to pay state teacher salaries so a government sanctioned pay rise makes no difference, and also can employ people to teach children that arent actually qualified teachers. They have the same freedoms as independent schools.
In reply to Post #287
There we go again.
If you find me tedious do not ask me any further questions
There we go again.
If you find me tedious do not ask me any further questions
In reply to Post #289
You made it up to suit your agenda again
You made it up to suit your agenda again
In reply to Post #290
I can assure I haven't please feel free to have the last word
I can assure I haven't please feel free to have the last word
In reply to Post #282
One word for me, passion
I've had good and bad teachers and lecturers, my daughter has had the same experience. I agree that they should be paid more as a whole. One thing for sure, you never forget the good ones and always remember the bad ones!
Personally I think dealing with people also requires a different skill set than just an academic qualification. Listening to people, being able to inspire and engage them, also being able to capture their imagination is a good start and that is usually down to the character of the person.
Not sure myself, I think performance related pay would be a good thing but difficult to control? Good bonus based on exam results? If I were a techer and came to work and gave it my all I would be well pissed if some mug came and just took the money 
Need to look at rewarding the good ones somehow for me, lead the way
TBH I have been thinking about having a crack at it myself over the last few years of my career. Sharing my knowledge and helping others
One word for me, passion
I've had good and bad teachers and lecturers, my daughter has had the same experience. I agree that they should be paid more as a whole. One thing for sure, you never forget the good ones and always remember the bad ones!
Personally I think dealing with people also requires a different skill set than just an academic qualification. Listening to people, being able to inspire and engage them, also being able to capture their imagination is a good start and that is usually down to the character of the person.
Not sure myself, I think performance related pay would be a good thing but difficult to control? Good bonus based on exam results? If I were a techer and came to work and gave it my all I would be well pissed if some mug came and just took the money
Need to look at rewarding the good ones somehow for me, lead the way
TBH I have been thinking about having a crack at it myself over the last few years of my career. Sharing my knowledge and helping others
In reply to Post #292
Performance based I believe they get anyway, in the fact that if they don't meet targets their job is at risk. I don't think you can control it because it's down to the children at the end of the day. If they aren't willing then there is only so much a teacher can do. Even intelligent kids might not be too bothered.
Performance based I believe they get anyway, in the fact that if they don't meet targets their job is at risk. I don't think you can control it because it's down to the children at the end of the day. If they aren't willing then there is only so much a teacher can do. Even intelligent kids might not be too bothered.
In reply to Post #293
As I see school, for some it's just another conveyor belt of kids going through a cycle and some take a real passion and interest, it ultimately dictates their futures!!!
Here's a bit of real life experience. My daughters school ended up been turned into an academy by Ofsted due to under performance. It was no surprise to me since some of the teachers were horrendous, no homework, very little guidance, very poor feedback in lessons and a year tutor who's head was that far up his arse he could not see daylight, I had several conversations with him and the man was a joke, simply would not listen. I had a couple of meetings with the head mistress who again I thought was pretty pathetic, her life was great, her kids were in private schooling etc. etc. OK then, what are you going to do about the kids in this school? The only satisfaction i got is following the Ofsted report they both got ****ed off and several others. Now me and my Mrs both work so we paid for our daughter to have extra lessons twice a week to enable her to keep up. Not ideal but if needs are a must and all. No homework so I could not understand what she was learning so could not help, and an online blackboard system that was never up to date, not to mention no details of the curriculum etc etc.
Now the key point with all of this, whilst a couple of muppets were playing “god” it was the kids that were really suffering. Mine was more fortunate because we did something about it, and I seriously felt sorry for a lot of the other kids who did not have these options, failed before they even started out in life, appalling if I'm honest. These are major stepping stones in a kids life and that why I think there should be some element of performance management, just same as there are in other jobs in life.
Reward the real stars, handsomely for me
Not performing, you get what you get
As I see school, for some it's just another conveyor belt of kids going through a cycle and some take a real passion and interest, it ultimately dictates their futures!!!
Here's a bit of real life experience. My daughters school ended up been turned into an academy by Ofsted due to under performance. It was no surprise to me since some of the teachers were horrendous, no homework, very little guidance, very poor feedback in lessons and a year tutor who's head was that far up his arse he could not see daylight, I had several conversations with him and the man was a joke, simply would not listen. I had a couple of meetings with the head mistress who again I thought was pretty pathetic, her life was great, her kids were in private schooling etc. etc. OK then, what are you going to do about the kids in this school? The only satisfaction i got is following the Ofsted report they both got ****ed off and several others. Now me and my Mrs both work so we paid for our daughter to have extra lessons twice a week to enable her to keep up. Not ideal but if needs are a must and all. No homework so I could not understand what she was learning so could not help, and an online blackboard system that was never up to date, not to mention no details of the curriculum etc etc.
Now the key point with all of this, whilst a couple of muppets were playing “god” it was the kids that were really suffering. Mine was more fortunate because we did something about it, and I seriously felt sorry for a lot of the other kids who did not have these options, failed before they even started out in life, appalling if I'm honest. These are major stepping stones in a kids life and that why I think there should be some element of performance management, just same as there are in other jobs in life.
Reward the real stars, handsomely for me
Not performing, you get what you get
In reply to Post #294
Yeah mate it makes sense. But like I said, and I'm sure mal will be able to say How correct this is, I'm pretty sure teachers are performance based in terms of they could lose their job. But end of the day some kids won't be bothered and it's unfair to punish a teacher for something out of their control. The only way you could do it is based on student predicted grades and final grades otherwise it's unfair on a set 3 teacher with all the D & E grade students when their colleague teaches set 1 with their A & B students, for example.
Sure there is some form of fair system but I can't see it ever being fair because there are multiple factors out of a teachers control that can affect a students performance.
Yeah mate it makes sense. But like I said, and I'm sure mal will be able to say How correct this is, I'm pretty sure teachers are performance based in terms of they could lose their job. But end of the day some kids won't be bothered and it's unfair to punish a teacher for something out of their control. The only way you could do it is based on student predicted grades and final grades otherwise it's unfair on a set 3 teacher with all the D & E grade students when their colleague teaches set 1 with their A & B students, for example.
Sure there is some form of fair system but I can't see it ever being fair because there are multiple factors out of a teachers control that can affect a students performance.
In reply to Post #295
Agree, but there could be some percentage factors
For me you should reward performance, I think that's fair, not just everybody because we can. But as a whole if that is a teachers salary below then it guess it needs a review, pay bands?
For the stars, like I say, reward them well, they are doing the right things and helping kids get the right start in life
Agree, but there could be some percentage factors
For me you should reward performance, I think that's fair, not just everybody because we can. But as a whole if that is a teachers salary below then it guess it needs a review, pay bands?
For the stars, like I say, reward them well, they are doing the right things and helping kids get the right start in life
evening fellas
we could have a whole new thread based on just a few of the things raised in terms of the school / education system - but it would probably turn political very quickly and get off topic as per ....
in terms of a couple of the things raised... from memory and personal experience
performance related pay - new teachers are started on the 'main pay scale'. this has a starting reward for some things, for example a new teacher with a 1st class honours degree (like me of course) can start on point 2 rather than point 1. Pay progression through MPS happens yearly. Once at the top of MPS, teachers can then move onto the Upper Pay Scale. Progression from this point is performance related - based on internal observations against national standards and over a period of two years. Factors such as extra curricular commitment / whole school contribution / CPD are considered also. Exam performance can be a factor but the sheer number of variables that can affect this (setting / external factors / local demographic etc.) mean that it can't really be the single defining factor. Performance management is robust and - in my experience - focused on how the school an help all teachers improve.
Academies - there's a school of thought (excuse the pun) that the academy initiative was a way of government trying to get rid of LEA's (local education authorities). If schools became academies (with a short term financial incentive early on) then they would leave LEA control and become - for want of a better term - stand alone businesses (sometimes schools grouped together to become linked). The less LEA management of schools, the more the government cold cut staff and related services for schools - and in true Tory fashion (I said it would get political) absolve themselves of any responsibility / culpability should problems arise. Ofsted inspections were used as a means of forcing schools down the academy route by giving them an unsatisfactory / notice to improve judgement. As greekskii has said, this meant that academies could offer higher wage than LEA schools - but the flip side was that staff could lose their job more easily under new contractual conditions.
In more general discussion - I work with (and have had the pleasure of working with) some outstanding teachers. There's no catch all definition of what that means as each teacher / subject / school has their own specific qualities and needs. Passion for your subject is - in my opinion - vital and infectious. Respect is a two way street. Listening is as important as speaking. Everyone can have a bad day - and everyone has the potential for an excellent day. I work for the students as much as they work for me. I finish every week with a phone call / email to a parent to say how well their son / daughter / foster child has done... the list goes on
I can remember passing my driving test and my instructor saying to me - 'you've passed your test, now go and learn how to drive'. Teaching feels the same to me. I was an expert in my subject. Then I spent time with youngsters who wanted to become expert in it and I had to learn about them in order to teach it. I've done a lot of CPD but the best training I get is on a day to day basis with the students who teach me how to be a better teacher.
It's my 3rd career after shipbuilding (how's that Trident sub doing?) and being a jobbing actor / director. And it's by far the most rewarding I've genuinely been gutted about not being able to work and can't wait to get back to it 
we could have a whole new thread based on just a few of the things raised in terms of the school / education system - but it would probably turn political very quickly and get off topic as per ....
in terms of a couple of the things raised... from memory and personal experience
performance related pay - new teachers are started on the 'main pay scale'. this has a starting reward for some things, for example a new teacher with a 1st class honours degree (like me of course) can start on point 2 rather than point 1. Pay progression through MPS happens yearly. Once at the top of MPS, teachers can then move onto the Upper Pay Scale. Progression from this point is performance related - based on internal observations against national standards and over a period of two years. Factors such as extra curricular commitment / whole school contribution / CPD are considered also. Exam performance can be a factor but the sheer number of variables that can affect this (setting / external factors / local demographic etc.) mean that it can't really be the single defining factor. Performance management is robust and - in my experience - focused on how the school an help all teachers improve.
Academies - there's a school of thought (excuse the pun) that the academy initiative was a way of government trying to get rid of LEA's (local education authorities). If schools became academies (with a short term financial incentive early on) then they would leave LEA control and become - for want of a better term - stand alone businesses (sometimes schools grouped together to become linked). The less LEA management of schools, the more the government cold cut staff and related services for schools - and in true Tory fashion (I said it would get political) absolve themselves of any responsibility / culpability should problems arise. Ofsted inspections were used as a means of forcing schools down the academy route by giving them an unsatisfactory / notice to improve judgement. As greekskii has said, this meant that academies could offer higher wage than LEA schools - but the flip side was that staff could lose their job more easily under new contractual conditions.
In more general discussion - I work with (and have had the pleasure of working with) some outstanding teachers. There's no catch all definition of what that means as each teacher / subject / school has their own specific qualities and needs. Passion for your subject is - in my opinion - vital and infectious. Respect is a two way street. Listening is as important as speaking. Everyone can have a bad day - and everyone has the potential for an excellent day. I work for the students as much as they work for me. I finish every week with a phone call / email to a parent to say how well their son / daughter / foster child has done... the list goes on
I can remember passing my driving test and my instructor saying to me - 'you've passed your test, now go and learn how to drive'. Teaching feels the same to me. I was an expert in my subject. Then I spent time with youngsters who wanted to become expert in it and I had to learn about them in order to teach it. I've done a lot of CPD but the best training I get is on a day to day basis with the students who teach me how to be a better teacher.
It's my 3rd career after shipbuilding (how's that Trident sub doing?) and being a jobbing actor / director. And it's by far the most rewarding
I've genuinely been gutted about not being able to work and can't wait to get back to it
In reply to Post #297
Brilliant insight that Mal.
Agree about the Ofsted. Cannot be a good thing long term.
Man with a passion, no doubt
Brilliant insight that Mal.
Agree about the Ofsted. Cannot be a good thing long term.
Man with a passion, no doubt
In reply to Post #297
So there's possibly a nuclear sub unknowingly armed with a t shirt launcher and tie dye projectiles
✌🏽
So there's possibly a nuclear sub unknowingly armed with a t shirt launcher and tie dye projectiles
✌🏽
In reply to Post #297
Good post Mal we need more people like you
God what have I said!
Good post Mal we need more people like you
God what have I said!