In reply to Post #212
Hi Ocelot,
Finally got round to you, it's been busy today.
Trump gets things done despite Nancy Pelosi ripping up his speeches at the State of the Union address.
Trump was a businessman with the drive to become a billionaire, not a career politician like Obama.
Follow the current Senate hearings exposing the Obama administration, weaponising the
Justice Dept, the CIA and the FBI to spy on the Trump administration. How the DNC via Hillary Clinton, paid 7 million dollars to an ex MI6 agent Christopher Steel via a company called Fusion to liaise with Russians he knew, to try and dig up dirt on Trump and which produced the phoney Russian collusion dossier.
The FBI knowingly used this phoney dossier along with a corrupted E mail to obtain Fisa warrants, which a judge passes and gives permission to spy on US citizens. They used the warrants to spy on several of Trump's people, including General Mike Flynn, who they targeted with a perjury trap and since has had the charges dropped by the current Attourney General. This corruption has been dragged out by crooked Democrats and media for 3.5 years, but new evidence and documents have finally been declassified which show the level of corruption. Re Flynn, one document has a handwritten note by a senior FBI agent saying, " what is our objective here, to get him to lie, so to get him fired or prosecuted? "
Watch this space. Hopefully, some of these criminals will be getting jail time.
BB.
Hi Ocelot,
Finally got round to you, it's been busy today.
Trump gets things done despite Nancy Pelosi ripping up his speeches at the State of the Union address.
Trump was a businessman with the drive to become a billionaire, not a career politician like Obama.
Follow the current Senate hearings exposing the Obama administration, weaponising the
Justice Dept, the CIA and the FBI to spy on the Trump administration. How the DNC via Hillary Clinton, paid 7 million dollars to an ex MI6 agent Christopher Steel via a company called Fusion to liaise with Russians he knew, to try and dig up dirt on Trump and which produced the phoney Russian collusion dossier.
The FBI knowingly used this phoney dossier along with a corrupted E mail to obtain Fisa warrants, which a judge passes and gives permission to spy on US citizens. They used the warrants to spy on several of Trump's people, including General Mike Flynn, who they targeted with a perjury trap and since has had the charges dropped by the current Attourney General. This corruption has been dragged out by crooked Democrats and media for 3.5 years, but new evidence and documents have finally been declassified which show the level of corruption. Re Flynn, one document has a handwritten note by a senior FBI agent saying, " what is our objective here, to get him to lie, so to get him fired or prosecuted? "
Watch this space. Hopefully, some of these criminals will be getting jail time.
BB.
In reply to Post #230
Hi bb
I'm tired so I'll keep this succinct....
You did
What you think isn't the issue
None of the poor whites are held back because they are black
Successful despite racism
Yes it is amazing in such a racist environment
What you think isn't the issue. And in this case is insulting
I have no desire to watch right wing 'intellectuals' trying to deny racism. And 40 per cent is still 40 per cent too much.
As above but with 30 per cent
Systematic racism IS the issue. That's the point.
Stay safe
Mal
Hi bb
I'm tired so I'll keep this succinct....
You did
What you think isn't the issue
None of the poor whites are held back because they are black
Successful despite racism
Yes it is amazing in such a racist environment
What you think isn't the issue. And in this case is insulting
I have no desire to watch right wing 'intellectuals' trying to deny racism. And 40 per cent is still 40 per cent too much.
As above but with 30 per cent
Systematic racism IS the issue. That's the point.
Stay safe
Mal
In reply to Post #241
I've seen plenty of Trump's cronies jailed and charged. Did you?
I've seen plenty of Trump's cronies jailed and charged. Did you?
In reply to Post #242
I have no desire to watch right wing 'intellectuals' trying to deny racism
Theres so many of them about isn't there?
Just because everyone has the right to being treated equally doesn't mean they are. Simple as that. There's employment studies where BAME people were less likely to get an interview that white people solely based on a different name on an identical CV. Laws exist to stop this happening but they still do (2016/17 this was conducted). A racist in a position of power creates inequality. Racism is learnt behaviour based on upbringing and society.
Much the same as most football supporters will tell your they hate the French and Germans and Argentinians, well pretty much any other country tbh. Solely based on having been beaten by them once or twice, this example also proves how people flippant and dismissive people are of their own behaviours because they'll then support the German star striker of their domestic team. Chanting about German bombers and the RAF, basically saying “we killed your grandfathers or great grandfathers” is deemed acceptable across the nation because you want to beat them at football?
To simply deny that racism exists in our society is because you are in denial...or doing that BNP **** where you can't accept that white people have flaws.
I have no desire to watch right wing 'intellectuals' trying to deny racism
Theres so many of them about isn't there?
Just because everyone has the right to being treated equally doesn't mean they are. Simple as that. There's employment studies where BAME people were less likely to get an interview that white people solely based on a different name on an identical CV. Laws exist to stop this happening but they still do (2016/17 this was conducted). A racist in a position of power creates inequality. Racism is learnt behaviour based on upbringing and society.
Much the same as most football supporters will tell your they hate the French and Germans and Argentinians, well pretty much any other country tbh. Solely based on having been beaten by them once or twice, this example also proves how people flippant and dismissive people are of their own behaviours because they'll then support the German star striker of their domestic team. Chanting about German bombers and the RAF, basically saying “we killed your grandfathers or great grandfathers” is deemed acceptable across the nation because you want to beat them at football?
To simply deny that racism exists in our society is because you are in denial...or doing that BNP **** where you can't accept that white people have flaws.
In reply to Post #244
Pissing on the cenotaph and trying to burn the flags hanging there show how much the political activists are using the mainly peaceful demonstrations as a cover. Its a chance to overturn society and they are grabbing it with both hands. Society will change and has to change but it will take time!
In the middle of a pandemic it is not the time to hold mass demonstrations the same same people attending these demonstrations will be whinging today about the death toll and the rates of new infections, they will totally gloss over the fact that they have possibly added to these figures and how the government and this racist bug is affecting society.
In a true representative society the fundamentals have to be established and with this you have to get rid of quotas, positive discrimination as well as discrimination and everyone earns their place on merit not because of underrepresentation. No more job adverts with Female and BAME are underrepresented in this role and are positively encouraged to apply.
What i could see of the London protest could be put in a category of BAME's who this affects most and most want peaceful change, The the usual peaceful professional protester who turn up because its happening and those who actually want change. The other section was the London centric Left wing activists, politically motivated students and black gang members. I wonder which section were firing flares, chucking bikes at horses and causing the trouble?
Just a note for the liberal elite never judge a book by its cover. A few years ago my Mrs was having an argument with 2 black people on the street, a couple of passing white people, let me describe them as liberal white female activists, started joining in the argument and berating my Mrs for berating the 2 black people and started slagging her off for her racist, white, stereotypical attitude. At the end it was only the 2 activists shouting at my missus until both the black people told them to keep their noses out. The liberals started explaining they were their for them to show support against the racist white woman. Thats when the bombshell was dropped that the racist white woman was the mother and grandmother of the 2 black people and that the liberals should **** off with their stereotypical ideals and blinkered approach. it runs both ways does racism and perceived racism.
Pissing on the cenotaph and trying to burn the flags hanging there show how much the political activists are using the mainly peaceful demonstrations as a cover. Its a chance to overturn society and they are grabbing it with both hands. Society will change and has to change but it will take time!
In the middle of a pandemic it is not the time to hold mass demonstrations the same same people attending these demonstrations will be whinging today about the death toll and the rates of new infections, they will totally gloss over the fact that they have possibly added to these figures and how the government and this racist bug is affecting society.
In a true representative society the fundamentals have to be established and with this you have to get rid of quotas, positive discrimination as well as discrimination and everyone earns their place on merit not because of underrepresentation. No more job adverts with Female and BAME are underrepresented in this role and are positively encouraged to apply.
What i could see of the London protest could be put in a category of BAME's who this affects most and most want peaceful change, The the usual peaceful professional protester who turn up because its happening and those who actually want change. The other section was the London centric Left wing activists, politically motivated students and black gang members. I wonder which section were firing flares, chucking bikes at horses and causing the trouble?
Just a note for the liberal elite never judge a book by its cover. A few years ago my Mrs was having an argument with 2 black people on the street, a couple of passing white people, let me describe them as liberal white female activists, started joining in the argument and berating my Mrs for berating the 2 black people and started slagging her off for her racist, white, stereotypical attitude. At the end it was only the 2 activists shouting at my missus until both the black people told them to keep their noses out. The liberals started explaining they were their for them to show support against the racist white woman. Thats when the bombshell was dropped that the racist white woman was the mother and grandmother of the 2 black people and that the liberals should **** off with their stereotypical ideals and blinkered approach. it runs both ways does racism and perceived racism.
In reply to Post #245
Well said
I think this thread is just like thrashing the water to a foam. Like somebody mentioned below. What are we going to do about it? 
Well said
I think this thread is just like thrashing the water to a foam. Like somebody mentioned below. What are we going to do about it?
In reply to Post #245
morning fishie
hard to resist eh?
I agree that the hijacking of a peaceful movement and protest is a problem. It undermines the argument because those who disagree have a 'see. I told you so' excuse to carry on with their behaviours. It isn't helped that these are the images that the media choose to run repeatedly rather than the thousands of people who have not p'd on churchill etc.
Luckily more and more people are recognising that the violence and damage is not the message of BLM and condemning those who are using it as a way of creating disorder. It's common knowledge that 'white supremist' organisations are sending in people to subvert and undermine the protests.
I'm glad the statues that glorify slave traders and sympathisers are coming down - it's ridiculous that they were still there to start with - but it does show that both our own and the US society have been built on years of racial oppression. They should have been taken down years ago by proper means... It does raise awareness of the history though. How many people are now more aware of Edward Colston as a result of this?
the pandemic issue is tricky. Flipping it on it's head, one could argue that it shows how vital it is to get the message across that people will risk infection to protest. Again, there are many who have peacefully protested WITH social distancing in place.
The job situation isn't so simple. Statements about employing underrepresented in adverts came about because of the inequalities in the recruitment system and while there are still people in charge who would use their position to preserve oppressive / discriminatory agendas then we need some form of redress. In an ideal world, all applicants would be treated fairly - we've some way to go yet...
Your story about Mrs fishie shows that people need to be sensible with this - however I would say that the reaction of the two women - who I won't label - is easily attributed to years and years of seeing things like this happen where the story is exactly as they thought it could be. Maybe it's a lesson learned for them to take away - objectively speaking I'd still rather people speak out and be corrected in an instance like this than walk on by and say nothing...
It's easy to apologise for being wrong in a situation if your intentions are good.
Hope your dad's ok and good luck for him coming home today
morning fishie
hard to resist eh?
I agree that the hijacking of a peaceful movement and protest is a problem. It undermines the argument because those who disagree have a 'see. I told you so' excuse to carry on with their behaviours. It isn't helped that these are the images that the media choose to run repeatedly rather than the thousands of people who have not p'd on churchill etc.
Luckily more and more people are recognising that the violence and damage is not the message of BLM and condemning those who are using it as a way of creating disorder. It's common knowledge that 'white supremist' organisations are sending in people to subvert and undermine the protests.
I'm glad the statues that glorify slave traders and sympathisers are coming down - it's ridiculous that they were still there to start with - but it does show that both our own and the US society have been built on years of racial oppression. They should have been taken down years ago by proper means... It does raise awareness of the history though. How many people are now more aware of Edward Colston as a result of this?
the pandemic issue is tricky. Flipping it on it's head, one could argue that it shows how vital it is to get the message across that people will risk infection to protest. Again, there are many who have peacefully protested WITH social distancing in place.
The job situation isn't so simple. Statements about employing underrepresented in adverts came about because of the inequalities in the recruitment system and while there are still people in charge who would use their position to preserve oppressive / discriminatory agendas then we need some form of redress. In an ideal world, all applicants would be treated fairly - we've some way to go yet...
Your story about Mrs fishie shows that people need to be sensible with this - however I would say that the reaction of the two women - who I won't label - is easily attributed to years and years of seeing things like this happen where the story is exactly as they thought it could be. Maybe it's a lesson learned for them to take away - objectively speaking I'd still rather people speak out and be corrected in an instance like this than walk on by and say nothing...
It's easy to apologise for being wrong in a situation if your intentions are good.
Hope your dad's ok and good luck for him coming home today
In reply to Post #246
What are we going to do about it?
Little bits at a time
Went to Hungary in February and they have some contentious statues that originally took pride of a place in Budapest main square but have been removed over the years to less prestigious places. The idea is they go there to learn about the past rather than celebrate it. That could've happened in Bristol but it's too late, or is it?
Sorry pissing on Churchill is not the way forward unless you had preferred for him to be defeated and we'd all now be living under Nazi rule?
Let's hope the lack of social distancing this weekend doesn't set the R rate higher we don't want the government sighting these demos as the reason do we?
Another good post Fishie. Told you it was moreish
Edit
Mal stop making excuses for people unless you make excuses for everyone
What are we going to do about it?
Little bits at a time
Went to Hungary in February and they have some contentious statues that originally took pride of a place in Budapest main square but have been removed over the years to less prestigious places. The idea is they go there to learn about the past rather than celebrate it. That could've happened in Bristol but it's too late, or is it?
Sorry pissing on Churchill is not the way forward unless you had preferred for him to be defeated and we'd all now be living under Nazi rule?
Let's hope the lack of social distancing this weekend doesn't set the R rate higher we don't want the government sighting these demos as the reason do we?
Another good post Fishie. Told you it was moreish
Edit
Mal stop making excuses for people unless you make excuses for everyone
In reply to Post #246
Morning Scozza
I don't agree with every sentence of this article, but there are some very good points in it - if you are wondering what you / we could do on a daily basis...
https://www.gq-magazine.co.uk/politics/article/white-people-black-lives-matter
I agree that we are going round in circles on here at times - but... if people keep trying to deny underlying issues, then it falls on us to keep reminding them
have a good day man
edit - tinhead. a little at a time is a good start
I agree about the removal of statues properly and I agree that pissing on a statue of Churchill is wrong. And I'm not making excuses - just providing counterpoints. Now when are you buying me that pint?
Morning Scozza
I don't agree with every sentence of this article, but there are some very good points in it - if you are wondering what you / we could do on a daily basis...
https://www.gq-magazine.co.uk/politics/article/white-people-black-lives-matter
I agree that we are going round in circles on here at times - but... if people keep trying to deny underlying issues, then it falls on us to keep reminding them
have a good day man
edit - tinhead. a little at a time is a good start
I agree about the removal of statues properly and I agree that pissing on a statue of Churchill is wrong. And I'm not making excuses - just providing counterpoints. Now when are you buying me that pint?
In reply to Post #249
The pint is still on
The pint is still on
Perhaps it's time for the middle aged white blokes of carpforum to move on to examine some other subjects we know all about ....
Sexual harassment - I'd be flattered if a woman grabbed MY arse in Tesco's, so why are they moaning?
Dwarfism - the birds love 'em, cheap kiddies clothes and you probably get pissed quicker, and they get a bloody blue badge!
Childbirth - perfectly natural process, what's with all the screaming and shouting?
Sexual harassment - I'd be flattered if a woman grabbed MY arse in Tesco's, so why are they moaning?
Dwarfism - the birds love 'em, cheap kiddies clothes and you probably get pissed quicker, and they get a bloody blue badge!
Childbirth - perfectly natural process, what's with all the screaming and shouting?
In reply to Post #251
which tesco do you shop in mate? watch out for the grey haired lass with stubble....
which tesco do you shop in mate? watch out for the grey haired lass with stubble....
In reply to Post #249
On a point of the statue in Bristol apparently a vote was held in Bristol and 11,000 voted to remove it out of 600,000, normal everyday people don't care about these politically motivated ventures, they just want to get on with their lives. You cannot change history and you cant airbrush it away. But you can educate and explain what's happened.
In relation to slavery i was taught at a primary school in Clapham London, where they had positive connection to the anti-slavery movement and the collapse of the British slave trade. They didn't hold back on both sides of the argument human rights and economic benefits. It was explained from both sides and not shielded away as a dirty secret.
I grew up in South London in the 70's where the NF and other right wing factions preyed on insecure poor/unemployed white youths and being honest at one stage i started to agree with them especially after the 80's Brixton riots which turned from protest to open looting and criminal damage. it even lead to a police dog being killed in a police van after the mob turned it over and set fire to it! that really helped their cause. But with age experience and a positive attitude I broke from a youth with no formal qualifications, from a poor family in a council house and no prospects. To labouring for a £1 an hour on building sites, then gaining an apprenticeship as a central heating engineer then my final job change it can be done. Its not white privalige, its not sitting back playing the victim, its having some commitment and hard work.
The protesters have now given the status quo reasons why the protests are wrong and middle England will agree with them. People are afraid of change, BREXIT anyone?, but forcing change will just put peoples backs up while coaxing and slowly encouraging will achieve the end result more quickly and with less upheaval whether true or perceived.
Remember all protesters are not looters and fighters but all police are bad. Sound familiar in this racism paint everyone with the same bush arguments.
Anyway I'm off fishing now and will return to the slanging match that is is this thread at the moment!
On a point of the statue in Bristol apparently a vote was held in Bristol and 11,000 voted to remove it out of 600,000, normal everyday people don't care about these politically motivated ventures, they just want to get on with their lives. You cannot change history and you cant airbrush it away. But you can educate and explain what's happened.
In relation to slavery i was taught at a primary school in Clapham London, where they had positive connection to the anti-slavery movement and the collapse of the British slave trade. They didn't hold back on both sides of the argument human rights and economic benefits. It was explained from both sides and not shielded away as a dirty secret.
I grew up in South London in the 70's where the NF and other right wing factions preyed on insecure poor/unemployed white youths and being honest at one stage i started to agree with them especially after the 80's Brixton riots which turned from protest to open looting and criminal damage. it even lead to a police dog being killed in a police van after the mob turned it over and set fire to it! that really helped their cause. But with age experience and a positive attitude I broke from a youth with no formal qualifications, from a poor family in a council house and no prospects. To labouring for a £1 an hour on building sites, then gaining an apprenticeship as a central heating engineer then my final job change it can be done. Its not white privalige, its not sitting back playing the victim, its having some commitment and hard work.
The protesters have now given the status quo reasons why the protests are wrong and middle England will agree with them. People are afraid of change, BREXIT anyone?, but forcing change will just put peoples backs up while coaxing and slowly encouraging will achieve the end result more quickly and with less upheaval whether true or perceived.
Remember all protesters are not looters and fighters but all police are bad. Sound familiar in this racism paint everyone with the same bush arguments.
Anyway I'm off fishing now and will return to the slanging match that is is this thread at the moment!
As much as defacing monuments and statues for blind thuggery goes, don't forget when other people have mindlessly damaged them there wasn't the same level of public outcry and condemning and hunts for the people that did it.
Im awful at links but:
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-22978219
https://www.theguardian.com/uk/2013/may/28/war-memorials-police-graffiti-islam
https://www.standard.co.uk/news/london/police-investigating-after-thugs-hurl-white-paint-over-raf-bomber-command-memorial-a4044331.html
https://www.standard.co.uk/news/london/war-memorial-defaced-vandalism-london-hayes-a4432866.html
https://londonist.com/london/news/karl-marx-vandalism
I pose the question, why didn't the people crying about it now, have nothing to say about all these other incidents considering all of the above were not during a protest where things escalated, most of them were planned attacks by someone with the intent on damaging them as their sole purpose. (clearly one is kids writing on the war memorial)
Not to mention the countless pissing on monuments that happens every boozy weekend or when the football is in town and stuff gets trashed. But it's okay because its football?
https://metro.co.uk/2018/07/08/football-fans-launch-fundraiser-repair-ambulance-wrecked-wild-world-cup-celebrations-7692981/
https://news.sky.com/story/london-ambulance-damaged-as-england-fans-celebrate-world-cup-quarter-final-win-11429810
The above highlights that england fans trashed an IKEA because england beat sweden at football so its a just reason to trash a business.
And then you get the absolute idiots as seen below (US based granted but still shows the idiocy of people)
https://www.independent.co.uk/life-style/gadgets-and-tech/news/pewdiepie-youtube-war-memorial-vandalism-t-series-sub-count-a8814006.html
Im awful at links but:
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-22978219
https://www.theguardian.com/uk/2013/may/28/war-memorials-police-graffiti-islam
https://www.standard.co.uk/news/london/police-investigating-after-thugs-hurl-white-paint-over-raf-bomber-command-memorial-a4044331.html
https://www.standard.co.uk/news/london/war-memorial-defaced-vandalism-london-hayes-a4432866.html
https://londonist.com/london/news/karl-marx-vandalism
I pose the question, why didn't the people crying about it now, have nothing to say about all these other incidents considering all of the above were not during a protest where things escalated, most of them were planned attacks by someone with the intent on damaging them as their sole purpose. (clearly one is kids writing on the war memorial)
Not to mention the countless pissing on monuments that happens every boozy weekend or when the football is in town and stuff gets trashed. But it's okay because its football?
https://metro.co.uk/2018/07/08/football-fans-launch-fundraiser-repair-ambulance-wrecked-wild-world-cup-celebrations-7692981/
https://news.sky.com/story/london-ambulance-damaged-as-england-fans-celebrate-world-cup-quarter-final-win-11429810
The above highlights that england fans trashed an IKEA because england beat sweden at football so its a just reason to trash a business.
And then you get the absolute idiots as seen below (US based granted but still shows the idiocy of people)
https://www.independent.co.uk/life-style/gadgets-and-tech/news/pewdiepie-youtube-war-memorial-vandalism-t-series-sub-count-a8814006.html
In reply to Post #253
11000 people voted for it to go - it should have gone. just because the rest of the 600000 didn't bother doesn't mean it should have stayed. more people in this country DIDN'T vote for Boris than did.... celebrating a slave trader - described as 'virtuous' - is wrong.I agree that education is vital. absolutely agree 100%
You were lucky in your school - lots of places don't cover the slave trade in any depth - or the realities of colonialism. Maybe your education is key to your more measured approach as you have grown older.
and nobody is saying that young white lads from less wealthy backgrounds don't face challenges. but there ARE different and colour based challenges that we (cause i'm white working class too) didn't have to overcome. saying it's lack of ambition or hard work from young black men doesn't cut it I'm afraid
and all Police are not bad - I don't know who has said that on here, but that's equally wrong. not all of anyone is bad (well.. the KKK etc. aside of course)
enjoy the fishing mate - i'm off to wash my hair. see you in a long while...
11000 people voted for it to go - it should have gone. just because the rest of the 600000 didn't bother doesn't mean it should have stayed. more people in this country DIDN'T vote for Boris than did.... celebrating a slave trader - described as 'virtuous' - is wrong.I agree that education is vital. absolutely agree 100%
You were lucky in your school - lots of places don't cover the slave trade in any depth - or the realities of colonialism. Maybe your education is key to your more measured approach as you have grown older.
and nobody is saying that young white lads from less wealthy backgrounds don't face challenges. but there ARE different and colour based challenges that we (cause i'm white working class too) didn't have to overcome. saying it's lack of ambition or hard work from young black men doesn't cut it I'm afraid
and all Police are not bad - I don't know who has said that on here, but that's equally wrong. not all of anyone is bad (well.. the KKK etc. aside of course)
enjoy the fishing mate - i'm off to wash my hair. see you in a long while...