Just looking for a consensus of opinion. I had a friendly argument with another angler on a new water today. IMO the hooklength swivel should be locked into the clip, I always use the type with pegs in to lock the swivel. This other angler was adamant that the swivel should pull out of the lead clip and be used with tubing, so in the event of a break the line can pull through the tubing. I did point out that in the event of a snap off the line often tangles enough to prevent it pulling through a lead clip never mind thin tubing.
In reply to Post #1
If you're using a lead clip it should be fixed. Better to use a running rig. Plenty of info explaining why on u tube.
If you're using a lead clip it should be fixed. Better to use a running rig. Plenty of info explaining why on u tube.
In reply to Post #1
They should always be fixed. Running makes them unsafe
They should always be fixed. Running makes them unsafe
In reply to Post #3
Exactly my thoughts too.
Exactly my thoughts too.
Can I just check I'm reading this right, irrespective of any tubing after the lead clip.
It's safer to have a fish trailing a hook link fixed to a larger than swivel lead clip, than it is to have a fish trailing a smaller bore swivel alone? There's evidence to prove a larger bore lead clip with flat edges is safer passing through detritus than a round eyed swivel?
Edit, angling know how defies physics
...
It's safer to have a fish trailing a hook link fixed to a larger than swivel lead clip, than it is to have a fish trailing a smaller bore swivel alone? There's evidence to prove a larger bore lead clip with flat edges is safer passing through detritus than a round eyed swivel?
Edit, angling know how defies physics
...
In reply to Post #5
It's to do with the ability for the lead to come off. If a lead clip is free running and for example the line breaks and pigtails then that will prevent the tail rubber being pulled off and therefore the lead coming off. With the fixed clip the tail rubber can still come off when the lead snags on something because that pigtail is at away from the tail rubber.
It's to do with the ability for the lead to come off. If a lead clip is free running and for example the line breaks and pigtails then that will prevent the tail rubber being pulled off and therefore the lead coming off. With the fixed clip the tail rubber can still come off when the lead snags on something because that pigtail is at away from the tail rubber.
In reply to Post #6
Thank you for the explanation ðŸ‘
I still don't see it though as you'd be keeping for eg in modern angling, up to a 5oz lead say 6" from the fishes mouth, it wouldn't be swimming round normally for very long like that. You'd be condemning it to dragging the lead and itself (especially if a big fish) along the bottom, untill the lead might release. Could a Carp compensate for that weight via it's swim bladder, I have no idea.
If the clip moves up the line and then snags at least the fish may be able to break the line, or fray it, or act in some way normally even though tethered.
Got me thinking about lead clip design now.. lol. If you think about it, the only bit of the clip arm that needs to be strong is is at the front, makes you wonder why past that point isn't a much weaker link, so even if the rubber doesn't discharge, the clip arm would pull out of it. Why rely on another component ie, the tail rubber to have to come off 1st, makes no sense.
Wierd how other branches of angling reduce strength toward the hook in general, or if fishing near snags, yet Carp fishing is the exact opposite.
Thank you for the explanation ðŸ‘
I still don't see it though as you'd be keeping for eg in modern angling, up to a 5oz lead say 6" from the fishes mouth, it wouldn't be swimming round normally for very long like that. You'd be condemning it to dragging the lead and itself (especially if a big fish) along the bottom, untill the lead might release. Could a Carp compensate for that weight via it's swim bladder, I have no idea.
If the clip moves up the line and then snags at least the fish may be able to break the line, or fray it, or act in some way normally even though tethered.
Got me thinking about lead clip design now.. lol. If you think about it, the only bit of the clip arm that needs to be strong is is at the front, makes you wonder why past that point isn't a much weaker link, so even if the rubber doesn't discharge, the clip arm would pull out of it. Why rely on another component ie, the tail rubber to have to come off 1st, makes no sense.
Wierd how other branches of angling reduce strength toward the hook in general, or if fishing near snags, yet Carp fishing is the exact opposite.
In reply to Post #7
The issue with what your saying is the obstruction behind the clip prevents the tail rubber coming off at all. So you're solely relying on the line breaking again, or the hook ripping out . And as you say with a lot of modern angling that line could be a strong leader for example, which has now got a few ounces of lead hanging however many feet below the fish making it far more likely to be tethered. With the clip fixed in place that can't happen, and the fish has a chance of losing the lead, which is the biggest danger. Sure they'll still be trailing the line about which may end up caught on something, but it may not too. With a lead hanging on the end it's going to snag as it acts like an anchor. For the clip to do it's job it absolutely must be fixed in to place. There are far safer ways of getting the same effect as the running clip system safely. The tapered rubber sleeves and a run ring for example, you get that initial resistance of the lead, and then it will slide off the bead and because of the larger bore of the run ring, and lack of a tail rubber, will allow the lead to slide away in the event of a line breakage
The point about leadclip design makes sense, but in reality isn't really possible because of the forces put onto it on a big cast and also when they hit the water . The first korda fixed clips had a weaker arm and there were problems with them snapping on impacting the water. The tail rubber is the safest way. For me the better idea would be to keep the arm nice and strong, but manufacture it shorter so the tail rubber can't be jammed on too far
The issue with what your saying is the obstruction behind the clip prevents the tail rubber coming off at all. So you're solely relying on the line breaking again, or the hook ripping out . And as you say with a lot of modern angling that line could be a strong leader for example, which has now got a few ounces of lead hanging however many feet below the fish making it far more likely to be tethered. With the clip fixed in place that can't happen, and the fish has a chance of losing the lead, which is the biggest danger. Sure they'll still be trailing the line about which may end up caught on something, but it may not too. With a lead hanging on the end it's going to snag as it acts like an anchor. For the clip to do it's job it absolutely must be fixed in to place. There are far safer ways of getting the same effect as the running clip system safely. The tapered rubber sleeves and a run ring for example, you get that initial resistance of the lead, and then it will slide off the bead and because of the larger bore of the run ring, and lack of a tail rubber, will allow the lead to slide away in the event of a line breakage
The point about leadclip design makes sense, but in reality isn't really possible because of the forces put onto it on a big cast and also when they hit the water . The first korda fixed clips had a weaker arm and there were problems with them snapping on impacting the water. The tail rubber is the safest way. For me the better idea would be to keep the arm nice and strong, but manufacture it shorter so the tail rubber can't be jammed on too far
In reply to Post #7
I think IP100's explained it very well in post #8.
With a heavy lead, such as the 5oz mentioned, the lead should be released on the take, or at worst whilst playing the fish. With light leads a bit more thought is needed to set them up safely. And don't get me started on drop off helicopter systems, you need to be very sure of your mainline/leader set up using these. Once the lead is gone, there's nothing for the fish to pull against to allow the hooklength to slide off the mainline.
There are some very dodgy lead clips about, I was given some a couple of years ago. The gap between the clip arm and the body was too small, even without a tail rubber it took a lot of force to discharge the lead. With a tail rubber fitted it would have been virtually impossible for a fish to drop the lead.
Just to give an idea of the tangles that can occur after a snap off.
A few years ago a friend had a frap up whilst casting a deeper, resulting in snap off trailing about 30yards of braid. We were waiting for it to drift ashore, but it stopped about 15-20 yards out, the trailing braid had obviously caught up in underwater weed beds. I sent my dog in to retrieve it, she brought it ashore, but the tangle in the braid would have been lucky to pass through a rod ring never mind a lead clip.
I think IP100's explained it very well in post #8.
With a heavy lead, such as the 5oz mentioned, the lead should be released on the take, or at worst whilst playing the fish. With light leads a bit more thought is needed to set them up safely. And don't get me started on drop off helicopter systems, you need to be very sure of your mainline/leader set up using these. Once the lead is gone, there's nothing for the fish to pull against to allow the hooklength to slide off the mainline.
There are some very dodgy lead clips about, I was given some a couple of years ago. The gap between the clip arm and the body was too small, even without a tail rubber it took a lot of force to discharge the lead. With a tail rubber fitted it would have been virtually impossible for a fish to drop the lead.
Just to give an idea of the tangles that can occur after a snap off.
A few years ago a friend had a frap up whilst casting a deeper, resulting in snap off trailing about 30yards of braid. We were waiting for it to drift ashore, but it stopped about 15-20 yards out, the trailing braid had obviously caught up in underwater weed beds. I sent my dog in to retrieve it, she brought it ashore, but the tangle in the braid would have been lucky to pass through a rod ring never mind a lead clip.
In reply to Post #6
totally agree with you, i believe a running lead clip is a dangerous rig when there are far safer alternatives to achieve a running rig
totally agree with you, i believe a running lead clip is a dangerous rig when there are far safer alternatives to achieve a running rig
In reply to Post #8
I'm just commenting on what I read, and to be honest whoever originally thought of this to my mind can only be a Carp angler or maybe Carp only fishery owner, I'm not having a pop at anyone, and maybe I'm misunderstanding, we all have our views.
1, They're advocating fixing a hook link to lead clip with a 3/4/5/6 oz lead on, in the theory that a bigger fish ie, Carp may be able to discharge the lead when dragging it near it's face and snags.
That's all well and good, but what about every Bream/Tench/ specimen Roach, that hooks itself and can't swim or drag a lead of that size, not to mention any wildfowl, diving Ducks, Coots, etc.
I feel like I've been transported back 3 decades, I thought we'd moved on from fixed leads?
2, they're suggesting we do this as a tail rubber may or may not discharge for any reason.
So we've replaced a system that MAY not work and MAY tether a Carp to one that will likely kill everything smaller than a certain size that doesn't have the ability to move that lead easily.
Effectively we've tilted the odds in the Carps favour only, at the expense of everything else, am I alone in seeing that can't possibly be right?
Regards running rigs, totally agree, I thought the discussion was based on bolt effect clips not deliberately using them as run rigs.
I'm just commenting on what I read, and to be honest whoever originally thought of this to my mind can only be a Carp angler or maybe Carp only fishery owner, I'm not having a pop at anyone, and maybe I'm misunderstanding, we all have our views.
1, They're advocating fixing a hook link to lead clip with a 3/4/5/6 oz lead on, in the theory that a bigger fish ie, Carp may be able to discharge the lead when dragging it near it's face and snags.
That's all well and good, but what about every Bream/Tench/ specimen Roach, that hooks itself and can't swim or drag a lead of that size, not to mention any wildfowl, diving Ducks, Coots, etc.
I feel like I've been transported back 3 decades, I thought we'd moved on from fixed leads?
2, they're suggesting we do this as a tail rubber may or may not discharge for any reason.
So we've replaced a system that MAY not work and MAY tether a Carp to one that will likely kill everything smaller than a certain size that doesn't have the ability to move that lead easily.
Effectively we've tilted the odds in the Carps favour only, at the expense of everything else, am I alone in seeing that can't possibly be right?
Regards running rigs, totally agree, I thought the discussion was based on bolt effect clips not deliberately using them as run rigs.
In reply to Post #11
Regards other species, that's pretty much the same for any system used, most won't have the strength to pull any size lead being used these days. As for the may or may not work, if set properly they do work. It's relying on the angler to set everything up correctly, but then that's the same for anything. The only way for 100% safety for every fish of every species is to not fish for them in the first place.
We have moved away from "fixed leads". That's a term for something that is fixed with no possibility of coming off.
Safety is something that's a matter of opinion, for example the "helisafe" is marketed as that, but in my eyes it's completely unsafe in that it removes the "anchor point" needed to aid any bead being pulled off and the hooklink being free of the main line. Others argue by losing the lead it makes fish more landable.
It's down to the makers of these products to make them as idiot proof as possible as we all know some people can't grasp how to use things properly. We've all seen pictures of utterly stupid things. Swivels behind an inline lead on leadcore, leads clipped to the hooklink swivel etc etc.
How clips are used in either a full running way or in that bolt rig way where they initially hold and then run along the line is of little relevance imo, both are relying fully on the line being straight and clean enough to slide through that small hole in the tail rubber to come off. It really doesn't take much at all to prevent that happening. If anyone wants that bolt effect, use as I mentioned earlier the tapered rubber beads and a run ring. Does exactly the same job but is way safer.
Regards other species, that's pretty much the same for any system used, most won't have the strength to pull any size lead being used these days. As for the may or may not work, if set properly they do work. It's relying on the angler to set everything up correctly, but then that's the same for anything. The only way for 100% safety for every fish of every species is to not fish for them in the first place.
We have moved away from "fixed leads". That's a term for something that is fixed with no possibility of coming off.
Safety is something that's a matter of opinion, for example the "helisafe" is marketed as that, but in my eyes it's completely unsafe in that it removes the "anchor point" needed to aid any bead being pulled off and the hooklink being free of the main line. Others argue by losing the lead it makes fish more landable.
It's down to the makers of these products to make them as idiot proof as possible as we all know some people can't grasp how to use things properly. We've all seen pictures of utterly stupid things. Swivels behind an inline lead on leadcore, leads clipped to the hooklink swivel etc etc.
How clips are used in either a full running way or in that bolt rig way where they initially hold and then run along the line is of little relevance imo, both are relying fully on the line being straight and clean enough to slide through that small hole in the tail rubber to come off. It really doesn't take much at all to prevent that happening. If anyone wants that bolt effect, use as I mentioned earlier the tapered rubber beads and a run ring. Does exactly the same job but is way safer.
In reply to Post #6
Provided the angler hasn't rammed it on
Gotta cater for every idiot on the bank
All they need to do is shorten the leg that goes under the tail rubber.
Can also use them without tail rubbers on and pva the leg closed so lead doesn't come of in flight.
Only need a little thinking about and everything can be made "safer."
Provided the angler hasn't rammed it on
Gotta cater for every idiot on the bank
All they need to do is shorten the leg that goes under the tail rubber.
Can also use them without tail rubbers on and pva the leg closed so lead doesn't come of in flight.
Only need a little thinking about and everything can be made "safer."
In reply to Post #13
Yeah of course, I've said exactly that earlier about the shorter arm for the tail rubber, and also catering for everyonesl. I don't like the idea of pva'ing the lead on with no tail rubber because of the guarantee of dropping the lead in any circumstance, way too much lead is being left in lakes imo. But thats a whole other conversation ðŸ‘
Yeah of course, I've said exactly that earlier about the shorter arm for the tail rubber, and also catering for everyonesl. I don't like the idea of pva'ing the lead on with no tail rubber because of the guarantee of dropping the lead in any circumstance, way too much lead is being left in lakes imo. But thats a whole other conversation ðŸ‘
In reply to Post #11
I'll take your points onboard Vossy, and try to answer them from my point of view.
I only fish with a maximum lead size of 3.5oz, so can't really comment on the very heavy leads you quote. Clips can be set to discharge the lead under very light pressure, alot less than it takes to pull a size 8 swivel out of the clip barrel or the sleeve of an inline lead, so if a small fish cannot discharge a lead from a clip it won't be able to pull the swivel out of the clip barrel, so it still becomes a fixed rig from the point of view of a small fish.
I fish a mixed coarse fish syndicate with a large head of tench, bream and roach. We don't have any problem spotting the bites from 6oz roach etc, so they must be moving the lead. In fact the last fish I caught there was a 4oz perch on a worm rig, the bite was clear. The tench and bream are no problem, the tench often dropping the lead on the take.
Regarding wildfowl, a coot or tufty can easily lift my leads, but not sure it could survive getting to the surface in 12ft of water, so yes that could be a problem, again it depends on how much pressure it takes to discharge the lead. But again it would take more pressure to pull the swivel out of the clip barrel, so it would be the same result.
Except in very specific circumstances I don't set lead clips to discharge under very slight pressure. Normally I would expect the lead to discharge on a fast take, but remain attached on steadier takes, but would obviously discharge if it snags, much like when the swivel pulls out of the clip barrel, but this gives the added problem of the lead possibly trailing a few yards behind a hooked fish. Fine in open water, but not ideal if there's weed about. I suppose it boils to how many leads you can afford to drop and your views on leaving leads in the lake as to how tightly you would set up a lead clip, and how much of a bolt effect you desire.
To put this into perspective, the scenario's we're talking about can only occur if you suffer a snap off on the cast, we're unlikely to get snapped up by a fish that's not powerfull enough to discharge a lead from a reasonably set up clip. If nothing else it shows the importance of using adequate mainline for the distances cast and the conditions you're fishing in.
I'll take your points onboard Vossy, and try to answer them from my point of view.
I only fish with a maximum lead size of 3.5oz, so can't really comment on the very heavy leads you quote. Clips can be set to discharge the lead under very light pressure, alot less than it takes to pull a size 8 swivel out of the clip barrel or the sleeve of an inline lead, so if a small fish cannot discharge a lead from a clip it won't be able to pull the swivel out of the clip barrel, so it still becomes a fixed rig from the point of view of a small fish.
I fish a mixed coarse fish syndicate with a large head of tench, bream and roach. We don't have any problem spotting the bites from 6oz roach etc, so they must be moving the lead. In fact the last fish I caught there was a 4oz perch on a worm rig, the bite was clear. The tench and bream are no problem, the tench often dropping the lead on the take.
Regarding wildfowl, a coot or tufty can easily lift my leads, but not sure it could survive getting to the surface in 12ft of water, so yes that could be a problem, again it depends on how much pressure it takes to discharge the lead. But again it would take more pressure to pull the swivel out of the clip barrel, so it would be the same result.
Except in very specific circumstances I don't set lead clips to discharge under very slight pressure. Normally I would expect the lead to discharge on a fast take, but remain attached on steadier takes, but would obviously discharge if it snags, much like when the swivel pulls out of the clip barrel, but this gives the added problem of the lead possibly trailing a few yards behind a hooked fish. Fine in open water, but not ideal if there's weed about. I suppose it boils to how many leads you can afford to drop and your views on leaving leads in the lake as to how tightly you would set up a lead clip, and how much of a bolt effect you desire.
To put this into perspective, the scenario's we're talking about can only occur if you suffer a snap off on the cast, we're unlikely to get snapped up by a fish that's not powerfull enough to discharge a lead from a reasonably set up clip. If nothing else it shows the importance of using adequate mainline for the distances cast and the conditions you're fishing in.