Hi, with a large percentage of anglers now using ronnies, hinge stiff rigs , D rigs etc which all rely on stiffish hooklinks is there a call to go back to supple hooklinks ??
In reply to Post #1
I often use a spinner on supple braid. Works a treat, especially with a little stick.
I often use a spinner on supple braid. Works a treat, especially with a little stick.
In reply to Post #1
Spinner rigs are very efficient in that you can change the hook, its hooking properties and universal capabilities to present any bottom, wafter or pop-up bait.
Coupled with the anti-tangle properties you get with stiff booms.
Also being able to reset I think for me is the big one, tench, massive roach and tufties diving on spots pretty much chooses the need for a stiff rig for me.
For me, only place supple hooklinks win is with solid bag fishing, outside of that, stiffer materials just trump them.
Spinner rigs are very efficient in that you can change the hook, its hooking properties and universal capabilities to present any bottom, wafter or pop-up bait.
Coupled with the anti-tangle properties you get with stiff booms.
Also being able to reset I think for me is the big one, tench, massive roach and tufties diving on spots pretty much chooses the need for a stiff rig for me.
For me, only place supple hooklinks win is with solid bag fishing, outside of that, stiffer materials just trump them.
In reply to Post #3
they only trump them if the fish haven't been hammered on them - you go to most day ticket waters where every man and his dog is fishing stiff links, particularly if everyone is on Ronnie's / Spinners or suchlike, put a braided hooklink on with a bait straight out the bag and see what happens......you'll be amazed how many more bites you get.
they only trump them if the fish haven't been hammered on them - you go to most day ticket waters where every man and his dog is fishing stiff links, particularly if everyone is on Ronnie's / Spinners or suchlike, put a braided hooklink on with a bait straight out the bag and see what happens......you'll be amazed how many more bites you get.
In reply to Post #4
Shhhh!
Shhhh!
In reply to Post #1
I'm still using braided hooklinks, coated braid with a stripped back section, combi rigs or plain braid straight through.
I've hardly used mono or fluorocarbon hooklinks at all.
I'm still using braided hooklinks, coated braid with a stripped back section, combi rigs or plain braid straight through.
I've hardly used mono or fluorocarbon hooklinks at all.
In reply to Post #4
Do we believe carp suss certain rigs out?
Do we believe carp suss certain rigs out?
In reply to Post #7
100% they do. I just rely on not many people use rough agricultural rigs like mine.
100% they do. I just rely on not many people use rough agricultural rigs like mine.
Tim paisley was right when he wrote years ago about the pressure cycle. Applies to bait and rigs. That's why doing something even a little bit different works time after time. Had my best session last year fishing 3 bait luncheon meat stringers with braid links. No one one the lake could believe how I did, needless to say that soon stopped working....
In reply to Post #8
Agricultural or Industrial?
Sure mine are Industrial...
Rigs being sussed is why things 'advance'.
The basic hair was being sussed on Savay so Rod Hutchinson came up with the sliding hair rig, and Roger Smith the D-rig.
From mono to dacron to Multi-strand via Nash and Kryston to soft braid, to coated braid and fluorocarbon..
Despite claims that curved hooks don't need tubing kickers or line aligners, some fish can eject them and you do need to resort to line aligners.
The same rig can give totally different options or results by the hooklink material.
Agricultural or Industrial?
Sure mine are Industrial...
Rigs being sussed is why things 'advance'.
The basic hair was being sussed on Savay so Rod Hutchinson came up with the sliding hair rig, and Roger Smith the D-rig.
From mono to dacron to Multi-strand via Nash and Kryston to soft braid, to coated braid and fluorocarbon..
Despite claims that curved hooks don't need tubing kickers or line aligners, some fish can eject them and you do need to resort to line aligners.
The same rig can give totally different options or results by the hooklink material.
In reply to Post #8
Carp are not intelligent, I do believe they get wary of situations such as tightly baited spots and certain coloured baits but I cannot for one second believe they suck in a spinner rig and go ah, I know how to deal with this one.
Carp are not intelligent, I do believe they get wary of situations such as tightly baited spots and certain coloured baits but I cannot for one second believe they suck in a spinner rig and go ah, I know how to deal with this one.
In reply to Post #11
No one is saying that. But if you have a lake with say 100 fish in, and 90 of those have been caught on one set up multiple times, there's absolutely no doubt that that set up will become less effective.
Anyone that doesn't get that principle is limiting their options greatly
No one is saying that. But if you have a lake with say 100 fish in, and 90 of those have been caught on one set up multiple times, there's absolutely no doubt that that set up will become less effective.
Anyone that doesn't get that principle is limiting their options greatly
In reply to Post #12
The reason that happens is nothing to do with the rig though.
Baiting application, bait colour, clear spots, type of bait, lead arrangement, angling pressure, time of the year, number of fish in the area competing for food.
I'm not being argumentative but I do not believe a rig loses effectiveness, I believe other factors change catch rate.
Spinner rig has been around years for starters.
Baits blow, spots blow, genuinely don't believe rigs do.
The reason that happens is nothing to do with the rig though.
Baiting application, bait colour, clear spots, type of bait, lead arrangement, angling pressure, time of the year, number of fish in the area competing for food.
I'm not being argumentative but I do not believe a rig loses effectiveness, I believe other factors change catch rate.
Spinner rig has been around years for starters.
Baits blow, spots blow, genuinely don't believe rigs do.
In reply to Post #13
I think you could catch a lot more if you didn't think that..
Sometimes changing the rig can be amazing, you think the fish aren't there and a change of rig and suddenly bites.... it happens a lot
I think you could catch a lot more if you didn't think that..
Sometimes changing the rig can be amazing, you think the fish aren't there and a change of rig and suddenly bites.... it happens a lot
In reply to Post #14
I have no problem with my catch rate, if I don't catch I certainly don't blame the rig.
I have no problem with my catch rate, if I don't catch I certainly don't blame the rig.
It's not just pressure, some fish just feed differently to others. This makes them more susceptible to certain rigs. If you only fish one rig you will miss out. I used to fish a large lake that only contained about 45 fish although I didn't know that at the time. After 12 months I had caught nearly 40 fish which included a few recaptures but all on the same rig, but not one particular fish I really wanted. I tried a completely different rig, a kd with supple braid and caught my target on the third trip. It could be coincidence of course but personally I don't think so.
In reply to Post #13
In reply to Post #12
The reason that happens is nothing to do with the rig though.
Baiting application, bait colour, clear spots, type of bait, lead arrangement, angling pressure, time of the year, number of fish in the area competing for food.
I'm not being argumentative but I do not believe a rig loses effectiveness, I believe other factors change catch rate.
Spinner rig has been around years for starters.
Baits blow, spots blow, genuinely don't believe rigs do.
Everything you mentioned is relevant to a rigs effectiveness, but some rigs do get sussed, catch rates go down, it is exactly why the D-rig and Sliding hair rigs by Roger Smith and Rod Hutchinson were developed as an advancement from the hair rig.
Every angler using the same rig will contribute to that slowdown as fish learn how to deal with the bait by changing their suck distance, or the tension of a straight rigid hooklink.
Not every fish that takes the bait is hooked, it is why resetting rigs was seen as so important, and the Spinner or Ronnie rig resets, it may not be the best hooking rig.
In reply to Post #12
The reason that happens is nothing to do with the rig though.
Baiting application, bait colour, clear spots, type of bait, lead arrangement, angling pressure, time of the year, number of fish in the area competing for food.
I'm not being argumentative but I do not believe a rig loses effectiveness, I believe other factors change catch rate.
Spinner rig has been around years for starters.
Baits blow, spots blow, genuinely don't believe rigs do.
Everything you mentioned is relevant to a rigs effectiveness, but some rigs do get sussed, catch rates go down, it is exactly why the D-rig and Sliding hair rigs by Roger Smith and Rod Hutchinson were developed as an advancement from the hair rig.
Every angler using the same rig will contribute to that slowdown as fish learn how to deal with the bait by changing their suck distance, or the tension of a straight rigid hooklink.
Not every fish that takes the bait is hooked, it is why resetting rigs was seen as so important, and the Spinner or Ronnie rig resets, it may not be the best hooking rig.
In reply to Post #17
You're giving carp too much credit for being intelligent, changing their sucking distance? Come on now ffs.
Some carp have really overslung mouths so I'll agree that certain rigs are more effective on certain carp of course, but rigs don't get sussed, these are not intelligent creatures, they are instinctual and greedy
You're giving carp too much credit for being intelligent, changing their sucking distance? Come on now ffs.
Some carp have really overslung mouths so I'll agree that certain rigs are more effective on certain carp of course, but rigs don't get sussed, these are not intelligent creatures, they are instinctual and greedy
In reply to Post #18
You're giving carp too much credit for being intelligent, changing their sucking distance? Come on now ffs.
Some carp have really overslung mouths so I'll agree that certain rigs are more effective on certain carp of course, but rigs don't get sussed, these are not intelligent creatures, they are instinctual and greedy
I wish I was giving them credit, but it's not intelligence, it is simple evasion. Even more is that it is not just me who has seen it, mentioned it, or written about it.
I know there is quite an explanation in Carp Fever by Kevin Maddocks, Rod Hutchinson mentions it in The Carp Strikes Back, and it's been written about in other articles, other books.
I think you may be confusing instinct and greed, dependant on the water .
An overstocked water where the carp need anglers bait to survive, they may well take the risk, survival over the chance of being hooked. Compare that to waters where they can pick and choose, or are constantly fished, the fish will learn.
Even on overstocked waters, carp will learn to avoid rigs, being hooked and even rig length, even if it takes longer.
There are so many waters, where despite being fished for, some big fish were rarely caught.
It is exactly why Roger Smith came up with the D-rig, it is why Rod Hutchinson invented the sliding or extending hair. This was specifically to deal with baits being sucked twice. The D-rig was originally a bottom bait rig!
The first suck pulled the bait towards the fish, the second suck took it into the mouth. On a standard hair it would bounce back away from the fish, the extending hair allowed it to be sucked in.
The D allowed it to move towards the fish after the first suck.
Blowback rig with tubing, KD rig, line aligner, rig kicker, shank extension, all answers to fish avoiding being hooked on rigs.
Instinct also 'teaches' avoiding predation.
Sorry, a bit of edit to expand and explain a point.
You're giving carp too much credit for being intelligent, changing their sucking distance? Come on now ffs.
Some carp have really overslung mouths so I'll agree that certain rigs are more effective on certain carp of course, but rigs don't get sussed, these are not intelligent creatures, they are instinctual and greedy
I wish I was giving them credit, but it's not intelligence, it is simple evasion. Even more is that it is not just me who has seen it, mentioned it, or written about it.
I know there is quite an explanation in Carp Fever by Kevin Maddocks, Rod Hutchinson mentions it in The Carp Strikes Back, and it's been written about in other articles, other books.
I think you may be confusing instinct and greed, dependant on the water .
An overstocked water where the carp need anglers bait to survive, they may well take the risk, survival over the chance of being hooked. Compare that to waters where they can pick and choose, or are constantly fished, the fish will learn.
Even on overstocked waters, carp will learn to avoid rigs, being hooked and even rig length, even if it takes longer.
There are so many waters, where despite being fished for, some big fish were rarely caught.
It is exactly why Roger Smith came up with the D-rig, it is why Rod Hutchinson invented the sliding or extending hair. This was specifically to deal with baits being sucked twice. The D-rig was originally a bottom bait rig!
The first suck pulled the bait towards the fish, the second suck took it into the mouth. On a standard hair it would bounce back away from the fish, the extending hair allowed it to be sucked in.
The D allowed it to move towards the fish after the first suck.
Blowback rig with tubing, KD rig, line aligner, rig kicker, shank extension, all answers to fish avoiding being hooked on rigs.
Instinct also 'teaches' avoiding predation.
Sorry, a bit of edit to expand and explain a point.
In reply to Post #19
based on your "greedy" theory connorhcarper, big fish would get caught as regularly as small ones.....and they don't - in fact some big fish become so wary of rigs and baits that they hardly get caught at all. So if they're really stupid, what's causing that? CONDITIONING
Sorry but I can't let this go, as basically you are takling utter tosh. I don't credit fish with a great deal of intelligence BUT as with all wild animals, i do credit them with ENORMOUS capabilities to adapt to their environment and in particular to threats.
Why do 10% of anglers catch 90% of the fish? because that 10% of anglers adapt their approach, baiting strategy AND RIGS to maximise their chances of success. I would bet a lot of money that on a water that's been flogged to death on ronnies and stiff links, any really decent angler would be using the polar opposite approach.
sorry not having a go at you personally here, but your basic premise is wrong.
based on your "greedy" theory connorhcarper, big fish would get caught as regularly as small ones.....and they don't - in fact some big fish become so wary of rigs and baits that they hardly get caught at all. So if they're really stupid, what's causing that? CONDITIONING
Sorry but I can't let this go, as basically you are takling utter tosh. I don't credit fish with a great deal of intelligence BUT as with all wild animals, i do credit them with ENORMOUS capabilities to adapt to their environment and in particular to threats.
Why do 10% of anglers catch 90% of the fish? because that 10% of anglers adapt their approach, baiting strategy AND RIGS to maximise their chances of success. I would bet a lot of money that on a water that's been flogged to death on ronnies and stiff links, any really decent angler would be using the polar opposite approach.
sorry not having a go at you personally here, but your basic premise is wrong.
In reply to Post #20
Mattycarphunter,
I had to read your reply carefully as I realised you replied to my post rather than Connorcarper's.
You mention big fish avoiding rigs and conditioning, one in particular springs to mind was Herman the Common in the Warmwell lake.
That fish avoided being caught for ages by so many anglers, Kevin Nash, Martin Locke and others.
There is a big Carpology article about it!
Yet there are other fish that despite being known about, seen, occasionally caught simply don't visit the bank on so many waters because they are rig and or bait shy.
Mattycarphunter,
I had to read your reply carefully as I realised you replied to my post rather than Connorcarper's.
You mention big fish avoiding rigs and conditioning, one in particular springs to mind was Herman the Common in the Warmwell lake.
That fish avoided being caught for ages by so many anglers, Kevin Nash, Martin Locke and others.
There is a big Carpology article about it!
Yet there are other fish that despite being known about, seen, occasionally caught simply don't visit the bank on so many waters because they are rig and or bait shy.
In reply to Post #20
We all have opinions, I have mine and you have yours and that's okay.
I disagree with your counterpoints but as you said, you can't let this go and I can so that's all I'll say on this matter.
Please don't say I talk utter tosh when you don't know me fella, I raised some points that are open for debate but I initially identified why I prefer stiffer rigs in my first post on this thread.
I'm not wrong fella, it's my opinion. Maybe next time when presenting another perspective on something, don't shoot someone else's opinion down cause it makes you look arrogant.
So don't be a keyboard warrior when you wouldn't speak to me like that in the flesh
We all have opinions, I have mine and you have yours and that's okay.
I disagree with your counterpoints but as you said, you can't let this go and I can so that's all I'll say on this matter.
Please don't say I talk utter tosh when you don't know me fella, I raised some points that are open for debate but I initially identified why I prefer stiffer rigs in my first post on this thread.
I'm not wrong fella, it's my opinion. Maybe next time when presenting another perspective on something, don't shoot someone else's opinion down cause it makes you look arrogant.
So don't be a keyboard warrior when you wouldn't speak to me like that in the flesh
Imo the "evidence" that carp learn to actively avoid getting caught, as apposed to just feeding differently is the fact that carp that get caught infrequently, very often do a repeat capture very soon after being caught, then they disappear again.
I think they learn to avoid rigs, some how, (I wish korda/cyp would spend more time trying to show this on camera rather than just trying to film the biggest ever fish getting caught) I think they mess up occasionally and get caught, which throws them off and unsettles them, which leads them more likely to getting caught again with in the next few days/weeks.
I think they learn to avoid rigs, some how, (I wish korda/cyp would spend more time trying to show this on camera rather than just trying to film the biggest ever fish getting caught) I think they mess up occasionally and get caught, which throws them off and unsettles them, which leads them more likely to getting caught again with in the next few days/weeks.
In reply to Post #23
Imo the "evidence" that carp learn to actively avoid getting caught, as apposed to just feeding differently is the fact that carp that get caught infrequently, very often do a repeat capture very soon after being caught, then they disappear again.
I think they learn to avoid rigs, some how, (I wish korda/cyp would spend more time trying to show this on camera rather than just trying to film the biggest ever fish getting caught) I think they mess up occasionally and get caught, which throws them off and unsettles them, which leads them more likely to getting caught again with in the next few days/weeks.
I have the opinion that a different feeding situation can sometimes make a 'blown' rig effective again.
A standard rig, choose whatever you want; pop-up on a Multi-rig maybe, where on most occasions on the water is fished over a handful of pellets, the carp have learnt that the pellets are food, but have learnt how to avoid or eject the rig on a lead clip.
Instead an angler comes onto the water, instead of fishing a whole normal pop-up fishes a trimmed down bait on the Multi-rig over a bed of particles and Vitalin. The rig suddenly works again, because the feeding situation is different.
Then one angler who sees the fish eating the pellets, instead of fishing a Multi-rig fishes say a 360 rig, catches.
One angler is sticking with the rig that works, another has advanced on to something different.
Imo the "evidence" that carp learn to actively avoid getting caught, as apposed to just feeding differently is the fact that carp that get caught infrequently, very often do a repeat capture very soon after being caught, then they disappear again.
I think they learn to avoid rigs, some how, (I wish korda/cyp would spend more time trying to show this on camera rather than just trying to film the biggest ever fish getting caught) I think they mess up occasionally and get caught, which throws them off and unsettles them, which leads them more likely to getting caught again with in the next few days/weeks.
I have the opinion that a different feeding situation can sometimes make a 'blown' rig effective again.
A standard rig, choose whatever you want; pop-up on a Multi-rig maybe, where on most occasions on the water is fished over a handful of pellets, the carp have learnt that the pellets are food, but have learnt how to avoid or eject the rig on a lead clip.
Instead an angler comes onto the water, instead of fishing a whole normal pop-up fishes a trimmed down bait on the Multi-rig over a bed of particles and Vitalin. The rig suddenly works again, because the feeding situation is different.
Then one angler who sees the fish eating the pellets, instead of fishing a Multi-rig fishes say a 360 rig, catches.
One angler is sticking with the rig that works, another has advanced on to something different.
In reply to Post #24
So what you're saying literally proves what I have been saying all along, multi rig hasn't been sussed out.
So what you're saying literally proves what I have been saying all along, multi rig hasn't been sussed out.
In reply to Post #25
No I'm not saying that.
I'm saying that you by changing your feeding situation you may change the effectiveness of a rig. If you feed the same you may need to change the rig.
I actually just picked Multi-rig, but equally I could have chosen KD rig, D rig, Blowback rig.
In plain English, you need to accept that rigs can be sussed, by overuse, by everyone doing the same thing.
I have given you evidence to back this up, from chapters in Carp Fever, from The Carp Strikes Back, from Big Carp, and personal experience.
One I keep mentioning because its so personal:
On Chantry Park, I was able to watch the fish from a distance of 2rod lengths pick up my bait, and hook on a standard curve shank hook, knotless knotted easily eject it.
This is actually a hook pattern that Danny Fairbrass said DOES NOT need tubing as it could not be possible to eject, yet it was. I came back with a line aligner on the same hook pattern, and caught the 2 fish that I had seen eject the hook previously, both commons. Not even the biggest fish in the pond, but they had gotten away with it first time.
You can change the effectiveness of any rig, for better or worse, by changing the hooklink material.
I may have very good results with a braided hooklink on a Multi-rig, but a coated braid hooklink Multi-rig is actually even more likely to my thoughts, to turn and hook better. I could be saving that for when results start to drop.
Or a fluorocarbon or mono hooklink on a Multi-rig could be totally different and unexpected and cause significant difference to hooking fish as they simply don't expect it.
Incidentally, look up John Claridges rig that he had on a boom, a weird version of a Multi-rig that I have used, and put a previously uncaught fish on the bank with.
No I'm not saying that.
I'm saying that you by changing your feeding situation you may change the effectiveness of a rig. If you feed the same you may need to change the rig.
I actually just picked Multi-rig, but equally I could have chosen KD rig, D rig, Blowback rig.
In plain English, you need to accept that rigs can be sussed, by overuse, by everyone doing the same thing.
I have given you evidence to back this up, from chapters in Carp Fever, from The Carp Strikes Back, from Big Carp, and personal experience.
One I keep mentioning because its so personal:
On Chantry Park, I was able to watch the fish from a distance of 2rod lengths pick up my bait, and hook on a standard curve shank hook, knotless knotted easily eject it.
This is actually a hook pattern that Danny Fairbrass said DOES NOT need tubing as it could not be possible to eject, yet it was. I came back with a line aligner on the same hook pattern, and caught the 2 fish that I had seen eject the hook previously, both commons. Not even the biggest fish in the pond, but they had gotten away with it first time.
You can change the effectiveness of any rig, for better or worse, by changing the hooklink material.
I may have very good results with a braided hooklink on a Multi-rig, but a coated braid hooklink Multi-rig is actually even more likely to my thoughts, to turn and hook better. I could be saving that for when results start to drop.
Or a fluorocarbon or mono hooklink on a Multi-rig could be totally different and unexpected and cause significant difference to hooking fish as they simply don't expect it.
Incidentally, look up John Claridges rig that he had on a boom, a weird version of a Multi-rig that I have used, and put a previously uncaught fish on the bank with.
In reply to Post #26
This thread has just become laughable, please stop quoting books at me, it bares no relevance.
Carry on chopping and changing your rigs, blaming them when you're not catching, we each make carp fishing what we want and if you want to super analyse a rig to death then that's your prerogative and dare I say enjoyment, me on the other hand, I think there are much bigger wins to be had.
That's all I'll say on the matter now because it's not constructive anymore, it's just slandering someone else's opinion
This thread has just become laughable, please stop quoting books at me, it bares no relevance.
Carry on chopping and changing your rigs, blaming them when you're not catching, we each make carp fishing what we want and if you want to super analyse a rig to death then that's your prerogative and dare I say enjoyment, me on the other hand, I think there are much bigger wins to be had.
That's all I'll say on the matter now because it's not constructive anymore, it's just slandering someone else's opinion
In reply to Post #27
Connor,
I've not slandered anyone's opinion, I've pointed out that rigs can blow, and first hand experience and printed in books, is relevant.
The amusing thing is I don't chop and change my rigs. I could pull a rig out of my rig bin, and it would be almost identical to what I was using in the 1990's on Taverham.
However, I do tailor my rigs to the water I'm fishing, change rig length, or hair length (dependant on where I am hooking, or if I'm losing fish).
If almost everyone is fishing a Spinner rig on your water, that Spinner rig, or Ronnie is going to stop working and catching fish. The Carp will learn how to deal with it. It is why we have hair rigs, why we have D-rigs, KD, almost every rig has been invented because the previous rig stopped working.
I'm happy for you to not worry about rigs, I'm happy if you think it's the 'be all and end all', but I'd be even happier if you were catching fish you might not of on a new rig because you realise you might need to change.
Connor,
I've not slandered anyone's opinion, I've pointed out that rigs can blow, and first hand experience and printed in books, is relevant.
The amusing thing is I don't chop and change my rigs. I could pull a rig out of my rig bin, and it would be almost identical to what I was using in the 1990's on Taverham.
However, I do tailor my rigs to the water I'm fishing, change rig length, or hair length (dependant on where I am hooking, or if I'm losing fish).
If almost everyone is fishing a Spinner rig on your water, that Spinner rig, or Ronnie is going to stop working and catching fish. The Carp will learn how to deal with it. It is why we have hair rigs, why we have D-rigs, KD, almost every rig has been invented because the previous rig stopped working.
I'm happy for you to not worry about rigs, I'm happy if you think it's the 'be all and end all', but I'd be even happier if you were catching fish you might not of on a new rig because you realise you might need to change.
In reply to Post #27
Agree, laughable 👍
Agree, laughable 👍
In reply to Post #28
The same fish have come out over the last 4+ years on Ronnie rigs on my current lake. And they'll carry on getting caught on them in 4 years time. Rigs don't blow never will or no one would catch on rigs anymore.
The same fish have come out over the last 4+ years on Ronnie rigs on my current lake. And they'll carry on getting caught on them in 4 years time. Rigs don't blow never will or no one would catch on rigs anymore.
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