I'm having trouble with the generally accepted modern concept of resetting rigs, where the hook and bait ends up the fullest extent from the lead.
A fish picking up the rig and moving towards the lead has to move double the length of the hook length before feeling hook. Conversely, if the fish picks up the bait and moves away from the lead, it only has an inch before feeling the lead.
My conclusion is that hooklink should land in a puddle around the lead and require the same movement wherever the fish moves. I've traced the 'resetting' theory back to the Korda underwater videos. Not exactly the touchstone of intelligence...
A fish picking up the rig and moving towards the lead has to move double the length of the hook length before feeling hook. Conversely, if the fish picks up the bait and moves away from the lead, it only has an inch before feeling the lead.
My conclusion is that hooklink should land in a puddle around the lead and require the same movement wherever the fish moves. I've traced the 'resetting' theory back to the Korda underwater videos. Not exactly the touchstone of intelligence...
In reply to Post #1
Use a stiff boom half the length of your rig. The other part is a souple braid.
Use a stiff boom half the length of your rig. The other part is a souple braid.
In reply to Post #1
Have a look at Ian Russell's flick rig does what your looking for, but in reality there's nothing new in carp fishing most rigs are just new versions of old rigs with new materials being used. Most of the time the new versions are no better than the old. It's a merry go round to sell new stuff.
Have a look at Ian Russell's flick rig does what your looking for, but in reality there's nothing new in carp fishing most rigs are just new versions of old rigs with new materials being used. Most of the time the new versions are no better than the old. It's a merry go round to sell new stuff.
In reply to Post #1
I've used a hinge rig with a supple boom in the past - the thinking being the same.
That said - stiff booms catch and continue to catch - I would try not to worry too much about it.
I've used a hinge rig with a supple boom in the past - the thinking being the same.
That said - stiff booms catch and continue to catch - I would try not to worry too much about it.
In reply to Post #5
I haven't been at all clear. Sorry.
I have a problem with the accepted wisdom that a 'reset' fully extended rig is a desirable scenario. It's just not. It is the least efficient position the hooklink could end up. It is one inch long or sixteen inches long and any distance in between.
I do worry about it. It 'keeps me up nights.'
I haven't been at all clear. Sorry.
I have a problem with the accepted wisdom that a 'reset' fully extended rig is a desirable scenario. It's just not. It is the least efficient position the hooklink could end up. It is one inch long or sixteen inches long and any distance in between.
I do worry about it. It 'keeps me up nights.'
In reply to Post #6
The hooklink combination touted as the brain child of Ian Russell gives the 'puddle' effect but it is a pop-up rig. That limits its application but I'm not really sure why a pop-up off the lead wouldn't be more effective; what is the benefit the hooklink material for Russell?
The hooklink combination touted as the brain child of Ian Russell gives the 'puddle' effect but it is a pop-up rig. That limits its application but I'm not really sure why a pop-up off the lead wouldn't be more effective; what is the benefit the hooklink material for Russell?
In reply to Post #7
It's meant to be for big fish. The length of the soft braid allows a big fish to upright itself before the rig tightens. Unless the hook catches hold first and the fish bolts. That's the theory anyway.
It's meant to be for big fish. The length of the soft braid allows a big fish to upright itself before the rig tightens. Unless the hook catches hold first and the fish bolts. That's the theory anyway.
In reply to Post #8
Nope...
Nope...
In reply to Post #7
Why not use a solid bag with a longer uncoated braid hooklength, that would give you the right effect. That way you can use any hook bait and avoid tangles.
Or a concertina rig. Or an uncoated braid hooklength on a heli set up with the top bead set 12ins from the lead. Pva a buoyant pop up to the baited hook. This will hold the hookbait vertical in the water then when the pva melts it will drop the hookbait and hooklength in a pile well away from the lead.
Why not use a solid bag with a longer uncoated braid hooklength, that would give you the right effect. That way you can use any hook bait and avoid tangles.
Or a concertina rig. Or an uncoated braid hooklength on a heli set up with the top bead set 12ins from the lead. Pva a buoyant pop up to the baited hook. This will hold the hookbait vertical in the water then when the pva melts it will drop the hookbait and hooklength in a pile well away from the lead.
In reply to Post #10
The closest I've got to a terminal arrangement that will be efficient throughout the entire 360° approach and exit is Adam Whittingtons' Nora rig, shown on the Gardner YT website. I'm slowly beginning to see how clever it really is, utilising that D shape.
The closest I've got to a terminal arrangement that will be efficient throughout the entire 360° approach and exit is Adam Whittingtons' Nora rig, shown on the Gardner YT website. I'm slowly beginning to see how clever it really is, utilising that D shape.
In reply to Post #11
Still got the same problem, it will only be slack if the fish approaches from the right direction, otherwise it will be sucking against the elastic. There have been a number of elasticated rigs over the years, including this one which is not new. They have all died a death for a multitude of reasons. Sorry but simple is best.
Still got the same problem, it will only be slack if the fish approaches from the right direction, otherwise it will be sucking against the elastic. There have been a number of elasticated rigs over the years, including this one which is not new. They have all died a death for a multitude of reasons. Sorry but simple is best.
In reply to Post #11
Not surprised that Gardner like the rig, look how much stuff you need to buy to tie it
Not surprised that Gardner like the rig, look how much stuff you need to buy to tie it
I would respectfully comment that I think we are guilty of overthinking things a lot of the time
Put a bait where the fish are where they want to feed and you will catch them
Put a bait where the fish are where they want to feed and you will catch them
In reply to Post #15
100% agree.
Sharp hook, good bait, in the right place.
100% agree.
Sharp hook, good bait, in the right place.
In reply to Post #15
In reply to Post #17
I cannot believe how abruptly all that original thinking of the 80s and 90s has come to a halt, with the current wisdom focused on sharp and simple. I'm quite sure the advantage has moved from the angler, to the fish. Some of those underwater videos show how many times the bait is taken without the fish being hooked.
It's probably for the best...
I cannot believe how abruptly all that original thinking of the 80s and 90s has come to a halt, with the current wisdom focused on sharp and simple. I'm quite sure the advantage has moved from the angler, to the fish. Some of those underwater videos show how many times the bait is taken without the fish being hooked.
It's probably for the best...
In reply to Post #1
I know what you mean and I'm certain that's why fish "are getting away with it" so much, by allowing the hooklength to fall away and be kicked out straight you aren't giving the fish enough rope to hang itself, hence them getting away with it.. think back to all those videos most of the fish approaching the hookbaits came from the side or the furthest away from the lead, not enough movement of the hooklength.. getting done. I will add when this does work, due to the lack of movement etc the fish tend to be hooked in the bottom lip as the hook is naturally dropping as a fish moves away against the lead. I witnessed a friend fishing a Ronnie rig laid out "perfectly" in a margin spot with 12 fish feeding and the hookbait must have been taken 6 or 7 times before the fish moved off, he changed to a short stiff d rig and instantly hooked one...
Conversely as I found out this year, too long a supple hooklength and the fish have too much movement and the hook holds can be at best poor (scissors/ top lip/ outside mouth etc) or you lose them. I started after lockdown and although catching more than my fair share I was losing loads, this is fishing a true slip D with heavy leads up to 6 oz, dropped from boat with pva nuggets. If you get picked up, the D will slip and you know if you have been done, not once did I reel in and find this to have happened, dropping to a 4" hooklength same method etc and the loses dropped off dramatically, still lost a few but nothing I couldn't live with.
Too much as/is been made about rigs and there effectiveness but no real though as to how and when they should be used, but it sells gear and allows the manufacturers to ply their wares on YouTube etc.
I know what you mean and I'm certain that's why fish "are getting away with it" so much, by allowing the hooklength to fall away and be kicked out straight you aren't giving the fish enough rope to hang itself, hence them getting away with it.. think back to all those videos most of the fish approaching the hookbaits came from the side or the furthest away from the lead, not enough movement of the hooklength.. getting done. I will add when this does work, due to the lack of movement etc the fish tend to be hooked in the bottom lip as the hook is naturally dropping as a fish moves away against the lead. I witnessed a friend fishing a Ronnie rig laid out "perfectly" in a margin spot with 12 fish feeding and the hookbait must have been taken 6 or 7 times before the fish moved off, he changed to a short stiff d rig and instantly hooked one...
Conversely as I found out this year, too long a supple hooklength and the fish have too much movement and the hook holds can be at best poor (scissors/ top lip/ outside mouth etc) or you lose them. I started after lockdown and although catching more than my fair share I was losing loads, this is fishing a true slip D with heavy leads up to 6 oz, dropped from boat with pva nuggets. If you get picked up, the D will slip and you know if you have been done, not once did I reel in and find this to have happened, dropping to a 4" hooklength same method etc and the loses dropped off dramatically, still lost a few but nothing I couldn't live with.
Too much as/is been made about rigs and there effectiveness but no real though as to how and when they should be used, but it sells gear and allows the manufacturers to ply their wares on YouTube etc.
In reply to Post #18
Looks like people are happy with what they are catching. It is good that you work on it if you are not.
Looks like people are happy with what they are catching. It is good that you work on it if you are not.
In reply to Post #18
If the rig is being picked up multiple times by fish wouldn't it in theory land back near the lead at some point thus giving you your desired presentation for a hook up anyway. (depending on the material used obviously)
The underwater videos all tend to feature one type of bating approach (generally in the margins to)all things that need to be considered when using a particular rig. Anyway I agree with where you are coming from.
If the rig is being picked up multiple times by fish wouldn't it in theory land back near the lead at some point thus giving you your desired presentation for a hook up anyway. (depending on the material used obviously)
The underwater videos all tend to feature one type of bating approach (generally in the margins to)all things that need to be considered when using a particular rig. Anyway I agree with where you are coming from.
Where I fish a rig that resets itself is vital, not only to deal with a carp spitting it out but also nuisance fish, crayfish and birdlife, an uncoated braid boom/rig would be mullered IMO
In reply to Post #22
That's the point. Using an effective rig for the conditions is what it is about. Just keep it simple imho
That's the point. Using an effective rig for the conditions is what it is about. Just keep it simple imho
In reply to Post #23
In reply to Post #24
tbh the thread title doesn't match what you have actually written in post 1 and is a bit confusing.
A resetting rig could be just the same as what you are endorsing, say a 4 inch uncoated braided hooklink & inline lead yet your wondering and questioning why people always opt for a resetting rig?
tbh the thread title doesn't match what you have actually written in post 1 and is a bit confusing.
A resetting rig could be just the same as what you are endorsing, say a 4 inch uncoated braided hooklink & inline lead yet your wondering and questioning why people always opt for a resetting rig?
In reply to Post #25
Thank you, my apologies.
I'm wondering what the obsession is with rigs that land with the rig at the furthest point away from the lead and restore this position if the bait is picked up by a fish.
I'm scratching my head because this is, by definition, a rig that continually fails, is it not?
Thank you, my apologies.
I'm wondering what the obsession is with rigs that land with the rig at the furthest point away from the lead and restore this position if the bait is picked up by a fish.
I'm scratching my head because this is, by definition, a rig that continually fails, is it not?
In reply to Post #26
this is, by definition, a rig that continually fails, is it not? NOT REALLY.
Resetting is nothing new TBH, I've been using rigs that do this for 25 plus years.
The BIG & KEY POINT IS THAT no matter what fish swirls near your bait, picks it up, spits it out, roach, bream or carp, it is fishing for you - all the time....
yes, you may miss opportunities if the fish approaches from the hookbait/side furthest from the lead, and has no slack movement, however, you don't need to worry like the old days about supple presentations with soft braided hooklink now in a mess for the rest of your session, and you not knowing until you wind it in
I have watched fish feed in the UK and abroad, and the disturbance that a single/group of fish and it's fins/tail can do to a baited area and rig is interesting to watch.
It is a Confidence thing really mate, little percentages.
In a nutshell - the stiffer the coating, or material, and shorter the hooklink, the reset is easier.
and also the balancing of the hookbait and rig, can make a big difference to it effectiveness.
Hope that helps put you mind at ease
But certain fish still easily deal with it, as lots of rigs act the same, conditioning them to act in a certain way. Every fish feeds in a certain way, some trip up, some never seem to, until something different is cast out.
this is, by definition, a rig that continually fails, is it not? NOT REALLY.
Resetting is nothing new TBH, I've been using rigs that do this for 25 plus years.
The BIG & KEY POINT IS THAT no matter what fish swirls near your bait, picks it up, spits it out, roach, bream or carp, it is fishing for you - all the time....
yes, you may miss opportunities if the fish approaches from the hookbait/side furthest from the lead, and has no slack movement, however, you don't need to worry like the old days about supple presentations with soft braided hooklink now in a mess for the rest of your session, and you not knowing until you wind it in
I have watched fish feed in the UK and abroad, and the disturbance that a single/group of fish and it's fins/tail can do to a baited area and rig is interesting to watch.
It is a Confidence thing really mate, little percentages.
In a nutshell - the stiffer the coating, or material, and shorter the hooklink, the reset is easier.
and also the balancing of the hookbait and rig, can make a big difference to it effectiveness.
Hope that helps put you mind at ease
But certain fish still easily deal with it, as lots of rigs act the same, conditioning them to act in a certain way. Every fish feeds in a certain way, some trip up, some never seem to, until something different is cast out.
In reply to Post #26
Its not a rig that continues to fail however it might take 4 or 5 pick ups before you actually hook a carp, surely thats better odds than leaving a rig out there that might be subject to tangling or poor presentation once some disturbance comes into the swim.
Ive been fishing a tricky lake and have had my success on exactly what you describe a rig that is set and is furthest from the lead. Feed appropriately to ensure the best chance of a hook up.
A pop up on a chod or a stiffish 360 rig might not be the most efficient rig in terms of pick ups to hook ups ratio but might just be fishing longer and therefore better and they also seem to get the bigger fish out of a lake.
All factors considered i think more activity occurs around the hookbait that we can imagine and having the security of a rig that you are 100% is always fishing is better than sitting their having doubt that the rig has been moved and into an awkward position for a pick up. Every lake is of course a little different and im just as interested in how the other anglers are fishing before I can try and decide on the best way to approach a lake.
Its not a rig that continues to fail however it might take 4 or 5 pick ups before you actually hook a carp, surely thats better odds than leaving a rig out there that might be subject to tangling or poor presentation once some disturbance comes into the swim.
Ive been fishing a tricky lake and have had my success on exactly what you describe a rig that is set and is furthest from the lead. Feed appropriately to ensure the best chance of a hook up.
A pop up on a chod or a stiffish 360 rig might not be the most efficient rig in terms of pick ups to hook ups ratio but might just be fishing longer and therefore better and they also seem to get the bigger fish out of a lake.
All factors considered i think more activity occurs around the hookbait that we can imagine and having the security of a rig that you are 100% is always fishing is better than sitting their having doubt that the rig has been moved and into an awkward position for a pick up. Every lake is of course a little different and im just as interested in how the other anglers are fishing before I can try and decide on the best way to approach a lake.
In reply to Post #26
So continually that people catch carp again and again lol
So continually that people catch carp again and again lol
In reply to Post #29
I've become very interested how and why known carp are caught once in the spring/early summer wake up/prespawning/post spawning and again in the autumn when the carp might be predisposed to feeding hard before winter. Carp are being caught predictably twice a year.
Are these fish slipping up because they are feeding much more heavily or are they simply feeding on our baits twice?
I can't answer this question but I feel it's an important one.
I've become very interested how and why known carp are caught once in the spring/early summer wake up/prespawning/post spawning and again in the autumn when the carp might be predisposed to feeding hard before winter. Carp are being caught predictably twice a year.
Are these fish slipping up because they are feeding much more heavily or are they simply feeding on our baits twice?
I can't answer this question but I feel it's an important one.
In reply to Post #30
why known carp are caught once in the spring/early summer wake up/prespawning/post spawning
Because they are dopey and half asleep, but waking up, as mother nature is telling them by instinct, as the water warms up with the longer daylight hours looming that they need to feed, to replace lost fats and energy over the winter period, and build up for pre-spawning and post spawning recovery.
Carp are much easer to catch, on any rig, when they really have a good feed up.
why known carp are caught once in the spring/early summer wake up/prespawning/post spawning
Because they are dopey and half asleep, but waking up, as mother nature is telling them by instinct, as the water warms up with the longer daylight hours looming that they need to feed, to replace lost fats and energy over the winter period, and build up for pre-spawning and post spawning recovery.
Carp are much easer to catch, on any rig, when they really have a good feed up.
In reply to Post #18
Don't watch 2 many vids , it does your nut in , feed them and thay will slip up
Don't watch 2 many vids , it does your nut in , feed them and thay will slip up
Reading ALL pages